NOTE: I am adding new pertinent links below as I come across them to keep you updated on the latest, so keep checking back and *see the “updates” section below… Also, see my latest recommendations here.
If you've been a reader for very long, you know that I've recommended Green Pasture products almost since I first began writing this blog.
However, over the weekend my inbox blew up with emails about Green Pasture's fermented cod liver oil.
I am not yet sure WHAT to think about this information, but in the meantime, since I consider all of you my friends, I have to share the latest so you can decide for yourselves.
Click here to download a 111 page document with FCLO research done by Weston Price board member, Kaayla Daniel.- Here is Dr. Ron's story (where he admits he took more than the recommended dosage) and his summary of Kaayla's report.
- One of my local friends (unnamed for her daughter's sake) shared this:
Click here to download a 111 page document with FCLO research done by Weston Price board member, Kaayla Daniel.I had a phone consult recently with a WAPF board member, Joette Calabrese, regarding my teenage daughter's exacerbating eczema, and she said to discontinue the FCLO! She said it is rancid due to the fermentation and remarked that Weston Price never spoke about FCLO, just CLO. We also dropped chocolate on her recommendation and my daughter was cleared of eczema within 6 weeks! I was so sold on that supplement as superior and I actually harmed my daughter. 🙁 I am almost in tears over this.”
I have another friend, however, who gives her daughter the FCLO and doesn't stop, because as soon as she does her eczema comes back!
My conclusions for now…
As I said, I'm still not sure what to make of this. On the one hand, the above information doesn't look good for Green Pasture Products. Not good at all. And if it's true, I'm very unhappy for having been led to believe this was a health food all these years, so much so that I recommended it to YOU, my reader friends who I only ever wanted to help, not harm!
On the other hand, through the years I have heard multiple stories of people who have been helped by taking the FCLO, myself included!!
(Here's another one: How to save $2600 in dental bills. And there are many more.)
It could just be that each person is different and either thrives or possibly reacts to different things, OR the fact that you can take too much of a good thing. And studies and reports have been known to be wrong, we all know that…
Yes, you can tell I'm going back and forth, because I just want the TRUTH and don't know who or what to believe.
Either way, I believe it's good to have options just because everyone is different, so here are my most current recommendations.
I've reached out to Dave Wetzel at GPP because I feel that it's only fair to hear his side of the story.
When I hear back or see a public response from Dave, I'll let you know in the links below. I've also heard that the Weston Price Foundation will be releasing a statement on this issue soon. Be sure to subscribe to blog updates in the orange box at the top of this page so you'll know when more information is available.
9/4/15: After reading all of the below articles as they are coming in, I still don't feel like we know the whole story from either “side”. It really has helped a LOT of people in the past, including my family and many of my readers! However, some just do not tolerate it well and others have said it actually harmed them — these varied reactions to a product can be true of most everything because we're all different! (Is there anything that is well-tolerated by everyone?!)
Those are my latest conclusions, which I am sharing with a BIG disclaimer: Read all of the links below and make up your OWN mind on this! Don't blindly trust me or anyone else on this or any issue, there is TOO much that I don't know. Thank you.
Updates:
(I'm going to keep adding any new significant links about this topic here, so check back.)
- 3/16: Find out what we're taking nowadays.
- 8/29/15: The WAPF's full response – it's a point-by-point rebuttal as I was hoping to see. I was very thankful for the professional tone here vs. the tone in the original report from Kaayla.
- 8/30/15: Chris Masterjohn's response – this one covers even more.
- 9/2/15: The latest from Green Pasture Products – I really appreciate how he talked here about “healing our community”. Another one: What do the scientists say?
- 9/3/15: Straight Poop on Cod Liver Oil Dosage (Ready to Be Confused?)
- 9/11/15: A pretty straightforward rebuttal — be sure to look at the interesting links in that article, too — links on how to tell if an oil is rancid, and what are best-practices for cod liver oil processing.
- 8/24/15: Here's Dave Wetzel's original response
- This is Sarah's post (WAPF board member)
- Here is Wellness Mama's take on this issue
- David Gumpert's post
- Kaayla's response to Sarah's post — I feel like two friends are not getting along and I can't get them to make up. 🙁
- Chris Kresser's post on the topic — He basically ends up at the same place I did, he's not sure what to think yet until we get more information.
- 11/10/15: Hook, line, and THINKER! Adding context to Kaayla Daniel's report on FCLO — a new look at Kaayla's report, easy to read and humorous too.
- 11/21/15: The Truth about Transfat in FCLO
- This is all so heavy, I had to share this that I saw on Facebook to help lighten things up a little while we wait for more information (not that this isn't very serious, but I'm tired of fretting over it right now!):
Do you have any stories to share?
Maybe FCLO has helped you or a loved one? Maybe you had a bad experience with it? Please let us hear from you.
Related Posts… OR NOT…
All of this makes my head hurt, so here are some other topics that may grab you:
Just skip the cod liver oil? Try this Fried Salmon Patties Recipe (Good for those who won’t take their cod liver oil!)- I'm going to go bury myself in final curriculum plans. Click here to see all my homeschooling and curriculum posts.
- How to Eat Carbs Safely and Lower the Glycemic Index of the Foods You Love (Also: Why Dieting Backfires!) — I still find this information SO helpful!
- Need healthy school lunch ideas? Or check out the last comment at this post where a reader, Dana, tells about a ROCKIN' option at their school: Real Food For Kids: School Lunch Letter Sent to Superintendent
- Calling All Working Moms and Dads – What’s Your One BEST Tip for Juggling it All?! I love re-reading the comments here.
- Have you read these posts about healing many different health conditions naturally? If you know someone with any of these problems, please share with them!
- What is the GAPS Diet (GAPS Diet for Rookies — did you know that the goal is to go OFF the GAPS diet?!)
- Bad Vintage Ads — these would be funny if they weren't so wrong!
An Entirely *Different* Kind of Resolution – Many Need This Much More Than Losing Weight- Easy Crock-pot Lasagna
- Struggling with eczema? I've heard this book, The Eczema Diet, is really good.
kitchenkop says
Well said, Jeanmarie!
Kel
Jeanmarie Todd says
I have revisited this controversy recently, re-reading a long discussion between several people including Chris Masterjohn, on the Nourishing Our Children page on Facebook (or perhaps it’s Nourising Ourselves; not certain). It is clear some people, mostly on the anti-FCLO side, have staked out a position and are not going to be swayed, no matter how many explanations from scientists are pointed out to them. A few things have become clear to me:
* FCLO is not for everyone; no supplement or food is right for everybody
* Because FCLO is not for everyone, it does not necessarily follow that it is dangerous for everyone
* Terms like “rancid” and “fermented” have everyday meanings but also have specific scientific meanings, which may even differ between different scientific fields.
* There is no need to panic. If you react negatively to FCLO, discontinue it.
* It is more difficult than people realize to analyze exactly what is in natural foods, and different labs use different technologies sometimes, and the accuracy of any form of testing depends a lot on the skill of the technician and the person analyzing the results.
* CLO in general may not be as great a source of Vitamin D3 as we’ve been led to believe.
* All the purified CLO brands except for Rosita, which calls itself “extra-virgin” and is raw , have been heat-treated and the natural vitamins removed, and synthetic vitamins added back at sometimes very low levels or in the wrong proportions.
* You may need to supplement with Vitamin D even if you take CLO or FCLO.
* Sunshine is probably the best way to get Vitamin D for most people but may be difficult depending on where you live. There are options such as tanning beds that can be explored. (Dr. Mercola has good advice on this.)
* It’s ok to not rush to judgment when one doesn’t really understand a scientific controversy.
* Do your research, keep and open mind, and don’t panic. Listen to your body.
sejotess says
I am SO tired of Kaayla Daniels diatribes. Even wrote an e-book???? It’s as if we aren’t smart enough to make up our own minds by now! At first I, also, was dismayed. But I really appreciate the information put forth by Dave Wetzel, and am impressed with the professionalism he’s displayed. Especially compared to the histrionics from Dr. Daniel. I have unsubscribed from anything ‘her’.
I have taken FCLO for years, and as I age I find that when my finances run low and I can’t replenish it for awhile, my eyes begin to hurt. By the end of the day I am looking through slits trying to function until bedtime. It’s amazing to me that I need only take it for a couple of days before my eyes feel more rested and the pain is gone.
Of course it may have caused eczema for some. I love coconut oil but to use it straight on my face, as so many delight in doing as a moisturizer, causes extremely dry facial skin for me. And it’s so embarrassing to have the white flakes above my eyebrows fall down on my glasses. NOTHING works for everybody.
Sherri says
I put coconut oil in a blend of oils for my face moisterizer and find it too drying in the winter – summer is just fine. What do you use for your face?
sejotess says
Hi Sherri. I read somewhere that one person uses 3 tbsp of Shea Butter and 1 tbsp coconut oil. They also used a few drops of an essential oil but I don’t have any (it just isn’t in the budget.) So I don’t worry about it. I use it lightly in the morning and more liberally at night. 🙂
kitchenkop says
Also Sherri, have you seen this post: https://kellythekitchenkop.com/diy-facial-cleansing-grains/.
That might help, too, because it gives lots of options. 🙂
Kelly
kallibella says
To me this is a no-brainer. “Fermented” oil is such an impossible thing to comprehend. I thought that “fermentation” occurred in matters/substances that have some carbohydrates that enable the lactic acid bacteria to proliferate. Fermenting flesh, as in the livers of fish, sounds really far fetched. I think that though there may be enough carbohydrate matter in the rotting flesh, there are to be sure other matters that are not food for the lactic acid producing bacteria, therefore the flesh would rot. The so-called “fermented” product GP produces is not the oil. The oil that they obtain is not fermented, that is, the oil they collect doesn’t go through a lactic fermentation stage, does it?
So in essence, people have been taking oil from rotting livers of fish. No wonder it tastes awful.
I say this respectfully. And I am thankful that I never took it, and never put the product on a pedestal, and found it extremely expensive. If “fermented” CLO is so great and fantastic, why won’t more producers produce “fermented” CLO?
KitchenKop says
I’ve read explanations of this in a few different places, it’s the livers that are fermented, NOT the oil. As I explained in the post updates above, now that more information and clarification has come out, we are still taking it and having good results in our family.
Kelly
Monika says
It is interesting to me when people say it tastes awful – I don’t mind the flavor at all. My mother says it tastes like a slightly thicker version of what they took growing up in Eastern Europe.
Monika says
I just opened a bottle of FCLO that was a year past the exp date (I found it when I moved.) It has no noticeable change in smell or flavor.
In fermenting (and judging foods in general), we us our senses. The average home cook doesn’t have access to lab testing, in all the fermentation classes I have taken, the teacher has said to measure progress and results by using my senses and ultimately using common sense.
My common sense tells me a big chunk of the real food movement seeks a profit as a primary goal. My common sense also tells me to follow the money. All of this is coming as a new alternative product is launched. Convenient, no?
I tried to leave a reply with a blogger (with a ruthless profit driven history) and it was deleted. This is also a red flag for me, and sadly reminds me of how big ag and big pharma operate. It’s a big turnoff to me and is why I don’t read the real food blogs anymore and instead trust my intuition, family food history (which includes cod liver oil) and local foodies with whom I can have a real relationship. None of these tell me there is a problem with my FCLO for my health. I will trust these things over astroturfers.
As for the lab tests, we can debate studies until the cows come home. Studies also have told us saturated fats are bad. This kind of thinking has led us to the food crisis this country is in today.
I will use my bottle and order more, as will my IRL friends. I won’t be back to read more real food blogs anymore, though. There has been too much negative drama, fadishness and cut throat competition for business.
I think you’re a blogger with integrity and I don’t mean any ill will toward you personally. It’s just that I think the people at GP are people of integrity as well, yet I doubt as things settle and more information comes out there will be any apologies. All the emotional hype might even strip me of my choice to purchase FCLO.
Our food journeys are unique and varied. That was the beautiful thing to me as I made the change to real food. Trust your senses.
KitchenKop says
Thanks Monika,
We keep ours in the freezer until we open it then it stays in the fridge and we’ve never had a problem either. I’m sorry that certain real food bloggers have turned you off to all of us. The negativity going on is making me crazy too so I just avoid it. But there are some of us who still have people’s best interests at heart and while I do have to earn some money on the blog (or I couldn’t continue, websites are expensive and take a ton of time!), there are PLENTY of money-making opportunities that I turn down because we don’t use that item/eat that food ourselves or I flat out know it’s terrible. Thank you for saying all of that, though. Common sense is refreshing. 🙂
Kelly
Cathy Raymond says
Oh Kelly! Thank you so much for posting the story about girl with exacerbated eczema. That’s exactly what happened to me. My dermatologist discovered it, and it was mostly gone in 8 weeks. I suffered with it for over 7 months…continuing to eat my daily dose of FCLO…thinking it would help me. i just kept getting worse. The itch was unbearable. Once I was off of it, my extra 35 pounds just slid off me!!!! All that inflammation was making me fat and ugly! Even worse, my Vitamin D levels were awful….only 31…and 30 is the threshold! All that money, all that faith…destroyed…at least it didn’t destroy my health permanently!
https://www.facebook.com/cathy.raymond/posts/10153530635770837?pnref=story
Kelly the Kitchen Kop says
Cathy,
As I said in my reply to your comment at the other post, I’m so thankful you are better (& that you have such a great family to help you through)!!
Xo,
Kel
KindFoodFarm says
I have had my own disagreements with WAPF, but if you’re on the board, you have responsibilities. It’s good that Kaayla Daniel took her concerns to the WAPF board, but if she was unable to get satisfaction, she should have resigned before going off on her own.
It seems that she has been needlessly inflammatory and basically wrote a report that was clickbait to get subscribers. I have lost respect for her, which saddens me. I have lost respect for Davis Gumpert for his very reactionary blog posts. I don’t care whether anyone buys from GP or someone else, but there has been a lot of slandering and repeating of untruths without waiting for more evidence or considering the scientists’ explanations.
Thanks for staying level-headed and impartial in your coverage of this debacle, Kelly.
xoxo
Jeanmarie
Victor says
It is indeed sad about David Gumpert. I felt that in his first two posts he was simply duped by Dr. Daniel, as David was basically quoting her from an interview, and so his articles were mostly a reflection of her own conclusions – which were unfounded. But I thought David simply could not realize that, and despite prompting, he did not look at the data.
Unfortunately, he started to make a lot of libelous statements by his third post, and seemed fully focused on his own agenda. I was practically pleading with people to look at the data, not the rhetoric. But clearly at this point he has no intention of turning from the path he is on. He engages me on occasion, but will never respond when I ask him to show me the data that confirms the FLCO to be rancid. Clearly he knows that there is no such data. Yet he persists to claim that it is. Sad.
Laura says
I’ve noticed a clear dividing line in the publishing world regarding this topic: Those who make money from selling the stuff back it to the death, those who don’t are skeptical, and believe the evidence.
sejotess says
When this first surfaced my first thought was…it’s FERMENTED! Seemed to me that could be what some taste as rancid. I did keep an open mind because I have great respect for Dr. Daniel and her book on soy. Now she seems unprofessional in her rants and has lost credibility in my eyes. After reading all the different viewpoints, I am tired of it all! I still feel fermented is NOT rancid and am very comfortable keeping it in my husband’s and my diet. For me…case closed.
Mary Marston, RN says
I haven’t read all the posts, but i can’t help wondering: have people used applied kinesiology or muscles testing to determing whether the FCLO is beneficial or detrimental to their body?
Victor says
Yes, people have used those techniques, and Sarah over at TheHealthyHomeEconomist recommends the muscle testing; reporting that her own tests show the FCLO to be superior for her.
There is also the rat assay test, which clearly show the effects of the FCLO on the body, and specifically its ability to deliver Vitamin D, as the FCLO will cure deficiencies in the rats that only Vitamin D can. You can read more about this on the Green Pasture website.
These kinds of test are far superior, as we are not capable of accurately measuring (or understanding) Vitamins in the product itself. But we can observe the effects. It is these observed effects, these experiences, that have made the Green Pasture products so popular.
FCLO is not for everyone, but for those that can tolerate it, it is an extraordinary food. Especially in combination with the Butter Oil and other similar products.
J.A.Winfield, MD.PhD. says
The most in depth, unbiased, and professional analytical discussion of FCLO can be found on the internet written by Christopher Masterjohn PHD, who was a WAPF funded post doctoral fellow in Nutrition. He has an excellent dissection of this fishy issue. He has two excellent web sites, one called the Daily Lipid and a second related to the Cholesterol Myth.
For his opinion on FCLO see below ;
REEEspect ;
J.A.Winfield.MD.PHD.
Ancestral Nutritional Consultation
Chief Scientific Officer of Healthier is Wealthier
https://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/2015/08/weighing-in-on-fermented-cod-liver-oil.html
KitchenKop says
J.A. — I did already link to that in my update section of the post.
Thanks,
Kelly
Victor says
Oops, I posted this on Facebook, but probably better here… Seriously… how can any of you suddenly disregard your years of experience and research? There are already years of tests, reports, and analysis that support the Green Pasture products.
I guess you have not seen Dr. Chris Masterjohn’s report yet, or the others that dismantle Dr. Daniel’s claims?
Here is a summary:
No tests have ever confirmed the Green Pasture FCLO to be rancid. None. Ever. Not in Dr. Daniel’s report, or any prior.
Summary of Facts about Green Pasture’s FCLO issue:
1. It is NOT rancid. This is explained in great detail by Dr. Masterjohn.
2. It is indeed from fermented livers, and this process is explained in detail.
3. It is Cod. Any search will show you that pollock is one of the few TRUE cod. Just check Wikipedia.
4. The Green Pasture FCLO unquestionably demonstrates a powerful and effective nutritional matrix. Not easy to measure, but definitely potent.
5. Activator X is certainly Vit K2, and Dr. Masterjohn invites anyone to challenge his previous reports on that topic.
6. The FCLO certainly contains activator X (K2), and Dr. Masterjohn repeats his statement three times for emphasis.
7. Transfat can be from microbial activity, and does NOT imply vegetable oil is present. Dr. Masterjohn and others presents several possibilities for the transfats, and does not consider them indicative of poor quality.
8. The idea of accidental or intentional contamination with vegetable oil is refuted by many. There is no evidence of vegetable oil in FCLO.
These and other accusations in Dr. Daniel’s report are solidly rebuked in Dr. Masterjohn’s response, and by others. I feel that Dr. Daniel’s report is criminal, and a betrayal to the community. Dr. Masterjohn’s conclusion is much more measured:
“…I find the antagonistic tone of the report to be unfortunate, and many of the accusations reach beyond what the evidence should allow for. If this report stands on its own, I do not think Green Pasture gets a fair hearing…”
More details can be found in my responses to Chris Kresser and others on my blog. If anything, this fiasco has reaffirmed how superb the Green Pasture products are. And no, I do not have any association with Green Pasture. I am just a user that wants to make sure the product continues to be produced as is.
Jan Martin says
Please note that Nordic Naturals oils add vitamin A and D to them and are not listed as soy free. I truly wished that Blue Ice had not discontinued sourcing it’s cod oil in favor of fermented oil. We have not been able to use their fermented CLO. My child will not take it because it smells and tastes bad. For years he took the regular high vitamin CLO with butter oil and it was great. I wish that were still available. It was discontinued and frankly since then, we’ve tried several other CLO’s but none that he will take. I’m trying to follow all the updates on this in hopes to find a replacement for the high vitamin CLO he used to take. Thanks for writing about this!
Lisa says
Thanks for being objective, Kelly. Like everyone, I just want the truth. I will say that I had weak nails that would split easily and joint pain, that all was completely healed after taking FCLO. And taking FCLO has been the only thing that has healed my sisters severe eczema. In fact, if she runs out of FCLO, her eczema will flare up within a few days. I am a pretty good judge of character, and after looking at Dr. Daniel’s website and watching her introductory video, she seems to be a sensationalist, and just rubbed me the wrong way. One of those people who have to be right at all cost. Maybe you know her well, and can attest to her character. I don’t mean to slander her character at all, but something didn’t seem right. I don’t know Dave, either. Everything just seems to have some wrong motives. At this point, our family will continue taking FCLO.
Colleen says
Hi Kelly! I have to be completely honest…while I’m sure that Dr. Daniel’s situation is real (although I do think a 111 page report is a bit excessive), I just cannot let myself get all up in arms about it. Just like with any ailment, disease or medical condition there are going to be outliers. 100 people with similar symptoms equals XYZ diagnosis, 101 person with similar symptoms does not equal XYZ diagnosis. 1,000 people on a Rx drug with no adverse reactions, 1,001 person on same Rx drug has adverse reaction. Each and every one of us is unique and will respond and react to the same stimuli differently. What works for you does not necessarily work for me…because we are different.
I just do not think there is cause for alarm here. As a people, I think we are too quick to jump on bandwagons. I for one will continue to take Green Pastures Blue Ice FCLO. I KNOW that it works for me and my family. I DO NOT have any concerns for it’s efficacy.
THanks for always keeping us informed!
KitchenKop says
Colleen, thank you for this down-to-earth perspective!
Kel
Sherri says
https://chriskresser.com/important-update-on-cod-liver-oil/
KitchenKop says
Thanks, I’ll add this to the post.
Kelly
Paula says
Ok, so we use things like fish sauce in our cooking. Made by salting and curing anchovies. Stinks to high heaven and tastes mild and a bit salty.
I am also familiar with eating various fish livers, as we live in Alaska and are able to fish for many species of fish.
I honestly should have thought about this long ago, but if the livers really are salted and “fermented”, the scent would be horrid with the taste being fairly mild.
Anyone else want to weigh on on that?
Jen says
Kelly,
Thank you for adding the links. I’ve been using your site as a resource for information on this topic and sharing it with our real food group.
I’m from Nebraska and what really struck me is the personal story of one of our local farmers. She worked at the Green Pasture’s facility in O’Neill years go and has seen the large canisters from Argentina and how they run their operation. Nasty, nasty stuff goes on there and has for a long time.
Niki says
What exactly do you mean by “nasty, nasty stuff?” Can you elaborate?
Jeffry Calhoun says
So far no one has responded to the allegations that were made about the fermentation process. Green Pastures says that the livers are fermented, which is done to extract the oil. The reason why the extraction method is a touchy issue is that you want to extract just the oil and not the contaminants (cod livers supposedly have various pollutants in them. That is why most companies heat treat the oil to separate them out. However, the vitamins also are taken out, so they have to be replaced with synthetic vitamins to retain the purity). Obviously, heat and chemical extraction methods are of concern, which is why I’m puzzled by all those people who take conventionally processed CLO. Yes, Nordic, etc. are “pure”, high quality products, but they cannot not supply the “x factor” and vitamin factors, such as the D complex.
The fermentation concern is that actual fermentation takes place, not putrefaction. In Norway, the weather is cold, and it takes place in barrels, so this would not take place in the sun, as supposedly is happening with the GreenPastures manufactured FCLO. If made without the protection of actual fermentation, the CLO would be a lot more dangerous to health than conventionally made CLO.
Some “extra virgin” or “virgin” CLO is extracted by either undisclosed processes (suspicious) or by centrifuging. This provides essentially fresh CLO that must be refrigerated. Also, it needs constant testing, as is true for all CLO, to ensure each batch is free of contaminants.
Finally, there is a lot more we don’t know about what is best identified as “vitamin D activity.” Vitamin D2 or D3 are just some laboratory indications of what is there in the fresh product. Scientists have identified some of what is going on here, but there is a lot of second hand misinformation about this. In general, as Linus Pauling stated, what are identified as “vitamins” are just the tip of the nutritional iceberg. I’m convinced that labeling a natural and complete D vitamin as D3 is a mistake. For example, We can make what may be identified as D2 in our own bodies in response to sunlight (as do some mushrooms), not commonly identified as D3. When we refer to D2 or D3, we are actually referring to factors which are the same as synthetically produced vitamin D. The entire group of naturally produced substances includes other factors. So taking a quality CLO such as Nordic will not supply the entire group of Vitamin D factors. This may be why Green Pastures has relied on Vitamin D activity, instead of just D2 or D3 (done by testing the vitamin D effect on rats, instead of just chemically isolating and measuring the D2 or D3).
At this point, if you are not comfortable with FCLO, you might try one of the virgin or extra virgin CLO’s (see Kelley’s links). Otherwise, unless you eat a lot of fish and pastured butter or ghee, you will not have all of the vitamin activity that Dr. Price envisioned, no matter how much Nordic CLO you take. I’m hoping that some third party testing will provide an indication of their purity and activity.
Susanne says
I had to stop taking fermented fish oil several years ago because it was making me sick! Regular fish oils are fine.
Jim says
Anyone who would really love like a in depth breakdown of the initial report and why it is hogwash please go here:
https://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/response-to-dr-daniels-report-on-fermented-cod-liver-oil/
I have no affiliation with the site.
EJ says
Beyond all of the “is it rancid, is it not?” questions, one of the big factors for me is that Green Pastures is not using cod livers. Kaayla Daniels had the livers tested and they came back as 100% Alaskan Pollock. In addition to this, the tests also showed that there were trans fatty acids found in the oil. This is NOT a natural byproduct of fermentation etc. I’m paying premium price for a product that does not deliver on it’s claims AND it’s not even made from Cod Livers!!! Alaskan Pollock is an inferior fish for oil production and super cheap! Part of the reason I was willing to pay more money is because wild caught cod is expensive. I notice that Dave did not comment on the Alaskan Pollock finding or the trans fat finding on his website. Very, very disappointed in this turn of events.
ML says
Inspite of all the high recommendations for FCLO my spirit never did allow me purchase it. Then I talked to the wife of a fisherman in a health food store. Eventhough she is not part of this company she highly recommended Nordic Naturals because of the strict fishing practices of the family who does the fishing for them. I felt at peace. I take the peach flavored with no negative after effects.
hopefulheart77 says
https://www.greenpasture.org/fermented-cod-liver-oil-butter-oil-vitamin-d-vitamin-a/response-to-questions-on-fermented-cod-liver-oil/
KitchenKop says
Thank you for this, I’ll add a link in my post above.
Kelly
minimustardseed says
So is this the Green Pastures brand specifically we should be avoiding or all fermented cod liver oil, no matter the brand?
KitchenKop says
I’m not sure anyone else makes fermented CLO, just GP I believe.
Kelly
Joanie Blaxter says
All of this controversy could possibly be very easily laid to rest if the Foundation simply funded third party testing to see if the results are similar to what Kaayla has produced. The names of the labs would NOT be blacked out which would guarantee total transparency.
I think all of us who are members and chapter leaders should call upon the WAPF board to insist that this happens as quickly as possible.
KitchenKop says
I agree, Joanie, that would be the best solution!
Kel
Shirley says
“In Alaska, foodborne botulism is caused by fermented fish and other aquatic game foods.” I came across this statement recently…and was really glad that for some reason I have always been concerned with fermented cold liver oil and was not convinced it was really more healthy than the unfermented kind. Although at one point, I did try the fermented type after so many people online said that it was the only type that should be taken. After trying it, I still wasn’t convinced and went back to my favorite and I believe it is the one that Dr. Mercola recommends….Carlson. And the Carlson Lemon flavored cod liver oil tastes good too! My daughter and I both believe that it has helped our vision and back problems.
Cheryl Reynolds says
I am very confused. My first order of Green Pastures butter/fermented cod liver oil is being shipped to me right now. I ordered it for my 5 year old grandson because his first dental appointment last week showed up 11 cavities. The dentist recommended general anesthesia to do the work needed, including removing at least two teeth. Not only was I shocked at this finding since he has been raised on our own raw goat milk and mostly healthy, non meat foods, but I am not comfortable with the proposed solution, including her recommendation to use fluoride. I was so excited to read the various websites regarding healing your dental cavities. I ordered the book everyone recommends. I have been anxious to start this treatment but now I am at a loss as to what to do. I’ve been reading the information on the various links given and haven’t found anything to make me feel confident that this is the right route to take for him….but what do I do instead? I can cancel the order and get all but $10 restocking fee returned, but that’s not the problem. What would you do for your child at this point? Like most of you, I am very dismayed to read this, especially since I read that the information was available last October!
KitchenKop says
All I can say is that in our family we’ve had good results with it. Hopefully more info will come out this week!
Kelly
Jeffry Calhoun says
I’m not sure why so many are jumping the gun in drawing conclusions and making assumptions. People have made statements showing that they do not understand fermented foods, a rich heritage in many societies. There is a lot of bad information about conventional CLO processing that no one seems worried about. It is a certainty that the food supplement industry has misled and lied about their products, as well as MD’s and others who are hawking them. This is also true about “healing foods” and supermarket and “health food” foods. I suggest that there are trade-offs involved, when industry provides the food for us. Each person needs to make their own judgment call, based upon careful consideration of all of the evidence. Those who make a snap decision may be going from the frying pan into the fire.
That said, note that the WAP foundation has already posted a reply to this, dated February 23, where they mention “MidWestern Laboratories, a large, respected, certified laboratory with extensive experience in this testing”, as the independent tester. The analysis of the analysis is found at https://www.westonaprice.org/uncategorized/concerns-about-cod-liver-oil/ . Anyone concerned should dust off their emotions, ignore non-factual rants, and try to make a factual evaluation for themselves.
A thank you to concerned consumers for being alert and concerned. In this instance, perhaps the sky is not falling after all (or maybe just a piece or two).
shuvanidev says
Interesting that there is such a discrepancy between the WAP results and the results that done by Kaayla Daniel. There are other concerns about the article here than just rancidity anyway – that of the adulteration of the FCLO with veg oils is disturbing. Something is not right here. At any rate I won’t be using any FLCO or any other fish oils until this matter is clarified.
Liz J. says
Wow thank you Kelly for posting this crutial information. I have had what I felt was great success with FCLO and fighting cavities like some commenters above, so this is very disappointing, but maybe a little liberating as welll. Just like everybody else, I am wondering if the benefits of using up the stockpile I have outweights the risk of consuming something rancid. I look forward to finding out more, and hey, on the bright side I look forward to a milder fish oil experience in the future. I am actually feeling liberated about going back to making ghee in the crockpot instead of spending the extra $ for the butter oil since it is so incredibly easy.
Lynncraig says
Putting in a big order of FCLO was on my to-do list for today, so thank you for this timely post!
Sarah says
Kelly, you are not alone if we have been duped. I just read Dr. Ron’s report. I am lucky to get through a blog post uninterrupted let alone 111 pages! I don’t know which way to go. It is very frustrating all around and makes it difficult to discern what might be true and what is not. If it were not for this post I would not have any idea this was going on. I deeply appreciate you bringing it to our attention. I know for myself that after taking fclo for 3 weeks my tooth sensitivity disappeared as did severe hip pain (I have never connected the two). I had a time when a NASTY virus was infecting my family. The two of us that were taking the fclo were the ones who did not get sick. During that time whenever I would get a flush of sickness and severe fatigue I would take an extra dose. Five to six hours later I felt fine. About two years ago my youngest began taking fclo. After 3 weeks of being on it the eczema on her back began to clear up. Recently, my tooth sensitivity has begun to come back. I have not been taking the fclo as often as I should and figured that to be the cause. Now however I wonder if the product has changed over the last 2 years and maybe it just is not as good as it was? Or maybe in the beginning I was so deficient that my body grabbed anything it could and that made an improvement. I just don’t know what to make of all of it. I do know that I do not blame you or any other blogger for that matter. It would be the fault of the company. I do wonder why WPF would not agree to getting the fclo tested though? I too wait to see an answer. I will not be purchasing anymore until we hear responses from all and my husband reads it to see what he thinks. I will finish what I have on hand though.
Candy says
Was going to order from Green Pastures “Back to School” sale…Not Now!
Thanks for letting us know, Kelly.
Lorene says
The article was informative but it did answer one question I have had. I started to take the FCLO about six weeks ago just to see what it was like. I was surprised to find it on the shelf and not in the refrigerator – as all true fermented products are kept in the refrigerator to slow the fermentation process once manufacturers have the product fermented to where they want it to be. So that seemed weird to me as I ferment a lot of foods all the time so I understand the process well. The other aspect that I found odd was how does a polyunsaturated oil become solid at room temp. It looked like oil looks like when it meets up with soluble fiber. It thickens but the oil still seeps out which is what I found in the jar I had. If a prebiotic fiber has been added then it would ferment – now whether this does anything to the oil or not, who knows but I am interested to know if anyone has heard anything about why it is so thick. Now I had no reactions to the FCLO and rancid fat and I are not friends – it is the only food issue I ever have. However I was only taking it every other day. And for all parents, FLCO may not be all that it should be or what you hoped it would be but I doubt it will turn out to be exceptionally bad as it has been around for awhile and there would have been more negative reactions to it and possible investigations if it was really bad. No need to feel guilty there is a lot of information and misinformation out there making everything very complicated and often confusing.
kathy s says
there have been negative reactions…read about Dr. Ron Schmid in Ct., who suffered heart disease from taking cod liver oil. I have been taking it for 9 yrs. and now have an irregular heart beat. I follow a Weston A. Price diet drink raw milk, bone broth, coconut oil, never eat trans fats or conventional foods from the supermarket, eat pastured eggs and have scrimped to pay the outrageous price for a fraud. I am furious at Sally Fallon, who refused to have this oil tested, and at the Weston A. Price Foundation, of whom I have been a member for the past 10 years. Shame on them! So many people ripped off and health being injured.
Catherine says
Glad we weren’t the only family who is allergic to this product.
Jill Herrmann says
In the article she stated that Price only mentioned fermentation twice when talking about the diets of all the cultures he studied. If I am not mistaken, he mentioned that almost all of them had some sort of fermented product in their diet whether it was cheese or sourdough bread. Is this one inaccuracy in her report? I hope someone with the time and resources goes through her entire report to verify everything.
Jill Herrmann says
I just heard from my local chapter leader that WAPF/Sally will make a statement tomorrow regarding this. She has initially stated there are inaccuracies in her report. There are 2 sides to everything and anything can be twisted to make it look in the person’s/group’s favor. Below is a link to a statement WAPF put out in February regarding concerns of rancidity. I plan to keep taking my FCLO blend for now in low doses as I have been doing. One has to look at the person doing the investigating and what their motive/intention is. They usually use emotional statements and take things out of context to get their point across. I got this feeling a couple times reading this article. Not saying she is trying to deceive, but you never know. I see at the end of the article she offers “free mini consults” to those who feel they have been harmed by taking FCLO. Maybe a way to generate business for her? I will wait and see what Sally’s response is. I’m not going to jump on the bashing bandwagon until I hear from both sides and do my own research. I have had nothing but good results taking it. What are the symptoms of ingesting rancid oil over time? I would think many people would get really sick from taking it and I have not heard of that happening. Also, my Vit D has gone up and my daughter’s Vit D level is 50 though she has not been in the sun very much since she was about 5 due to a genetic liver disease. https://www.westonaprice.org/uncategorized/concerns-about-cod-liver-oil/
Vivian says
I am truly disgusted and feel duped. I have been so sick since 2008 and trying to get healthy and have been putting rancid products into my body. I feel so stupid for buying it all hook, line and sinker like the article said. I guess I need to learn to question everything – even though I never would have been able to afford what Kaayla did with the testing, so who do you trust.
Kelly, I do not blame you, you put it out there in good faith, we were all duped 🙁 I hope no real harm was done to anyone in this process. I will be smarter from now on.
Jill Herrmann says
Hi Vivian, I certainly understand how you feel. I agree to question everything, including this article. If someone were truly interested in just offering the facts and test results, they wouldn’t include emotional statements as she did in her article (in my opinion). They would just stick to the facts. She makes the Green Pastures guy look like an idiot who is deliberately manipulating people. I’m not so sure that is true. We have to look at both sides and all the data before coming to a logical conclusion. I am interested to hear what Sally has to say. I found at least one inaccuracy in the report. I’m going to reread it again and verify it. Don’t be so hard on yourself. Like many people, you are looking to feel better and nothing wrong with that. Sometimes a person will do just about anything to feel better. I get very frustrated when nothing seems to work and just feel like giving up. Stay the course. We will figure it out!!
Robyn says
I had been eagerly waiting to have enough money set aside to try the FCLO since it had been so highly recommended by all my favorite bloggers. Then Thrive Market came along and the price was too good to pass up. I ordered a bottle and started giving it to my daughter. I was totally unimpressed with it as it seemed to induce more vomiting than confer any health benefits. So I discontinued using it, but not before doing some additional research on the Green Pastures website. I reviewed the tests of the nutrient content and found that the measurable vitamin D in it was actually more D2, and not a lot of D3. At this point I was feeling a bit mislead, BUT we always need to remember to do our own research before taking someone’s recommendation as gospel on any supplement. I decided to wait and see what additional information might become available, and sure enough, recently the Price Pottenger Foundation released some previously unpublished research on CLO from Dr. Price. I have also looked at the tested nutrients on the EVCLO, and it does appear that the D3 remains intact with the minimal processing. So right now, the EVCLO is what I intend to start giving to my child who needs the extra vitamin D, and see how she does on that. I am hoping that Thrive Market will also start carrying it because I would really appreciate a discount on it (especially since I still haven’t bought enough to have made my membership costs back yet).
Diane says
I haven’t taken FCLO, mostly because of the cost, but I’m deeply disturbed to hear that the WP board would not have the product tested. I haven’t been a huge Sally Fallon fan since reading her put down of Paleo, and this makes me even more suspicious of her motives. On a side note, a couple of years ago I asked my local natural health food store why they didn’t carry FCLO and they said because they believed the claims about the product were dubious, and the believed based on their research that product might even be harmful. At the time I was quite angry and defended what I believed to be the truth about FCLO. Looks like they might have been right!
Kara L says
I have been taking FCLO for a couple of years and I’ve noticed great benefits. It cleared up my severe rosacea and gave me stronger finger nails. I haven’t read the article yet, but maybe it’s just a matter of inconsistency? I’m really nervous to keep taking it, though, and I have a couple of unopened bottles in the fridge. I also feel terrible for recommending it to friends, especially considering how expensive it is. Not sure what to think…
Jill Herrmann says
Hmmmm not sure what to think. I love the FCLO royal blend. I have noticed some great health benefits from it, like huge deep cracks in my feet completely gone, edema in lower legs almost gone as well as increased heart function. I only took 2 capsules though so it was a low dose. I still have other nagging health issues though that may or may not be related to the FCLO blend. One thing I question is the inconsistent color of the FCLO. One order was very dark and my next order was very light and golden. There should not be such a huge contrast. I have tried other cod liver oils such as Nordic Naturals and Olde World Icelandic and didn’t like either of them. Maybe I will try the extra virgin one or maybe I’ll stop taking them it altogether and get my fatty acid profile test done to see if I even need to take a fish oil. So much disinfo out there and so many ill people relying on health companies/practitioners to help them. This leaves such a sour taste in my mouth. It will be interesting to hear WAPF’s response to this.
Diane says
Jill, just a note, I used to have huge deep cracks in my feet and I’ve never taken FCLO, but when I switched to a primal diet (Mark Sisson’s diet), those went away completely. I take Carlson’s cod liver oil but I think it was simply the addition of plenty of healthy fats into my diet that accomplished it.
Jill Herrmann says
Thanks Diane. Diet alone didn’t help the cracks I had, which I had for many, many years and nothing seemed to help. Not until I took the FCLO and it only took about a week. I tried Carlsons too and didn’t like it. Maybe it was the added Vit E or lemon they had in it. I don’t think my body digests fat real well, thus the need to supplement.
Susan says
This ticks me off! Here I’ve been squeezing the purchase of this stuff into our budget believing it was crucial for good health, only to find out I’ve been taking putrified -not fermented- fish that’s not even cod? WTH?
But the thing that gets me the most is this: Why is it as Kaayla was sqawking to the WAPF board that she was highly suspicious of the ingredients in FCLO that the board members were telling her to let it go, and then giving her the ultimate shut down (or shut up) by voting against having it tested??? Are there payoffs going on here???
There’s something smelly here and its not just the FCLO!!!
Gail says
I’ve always thought the notion of fermented oil sounded a bit odd. My understanding is that carbohydrates ferment; fats do not. We’ve used Garden of Life for years and are satisfied with it.
Craig says
One of the first points I make in my analysis of the report (https://www.thehealthcloud.co.uk/green-pastures-rancid-report-analysis/) is that fish can fermented! Carbohydrates are not needed (although they are usually present). Just look at all the traditional fermented fish products that Asian countries have been using for years.
I appreciate that Dr. Kaayla has unearthed some things here (quinone count being one), but much of her report isn’t scientific.
Victor says
Craig, great job. I was just thinking that I wanted to post your link in a few places. I noticed it on a David Gumpert thread, and it was mostly ignored, unfortunately. Great job on laying out and dismantling Dr. Daniel’s assertions.
Michelle says
Kelly,
I have been a Weston A. Price member since 2006 and a Green Pasture customer since 2009. In 2010 I had my blood work done and my Vitamin D level was 25. I just had it taken again in April of this year and it is now 21!! I have eaten an all organic diet since 1998. When I found WAPF I immediately began that journey, soaking grains, bone broth, local pastured meat , etc.. Since 2010 I have been on a Paleo/Primal diet. Over the last year and a half my teeth were becoming translucent and I couldn’t understand why, so that is why I had the blood test done. All my other numbers are fine, so it isn’t that I am not absorbing vitamins and minerals, just Vitamin D. I am working with a nutritionist right now and she has me on high dose liquid Vitamin D and that has brought my teeth back to normal. My daughter who also takes the fermented cod liver oil is at 31. This is unacceptable if we have in fact been lied to. A red flag for me was Green Pasture and WAPF refusing to do an independent test. If they support this product why weren’t they not willing to do this? I just spent a couple hundred dollars on their latest sale to stock up…I will be asking for a refund. Thanks for keeping us informed.
Maria says
I had posted a while ago, on one of Kelly’s other threads on FCLO, that we had been taking it and at my children’s checkups we found out that they all were very low in Vitamin D. My pediatrician who has a very holistic approach said that she has found that many of her other patients who were taking FCLO were also low in Vitamin D and she is convinced that FCLO is not a good source of Vitamin D. After this, we still took it on and off, but not that much. We started just taking Vitamin D by Thorne, suggested by our naturopathic doc. Interestingly, my youngest daughter always had trouble with cavities and I was so frustrated because she had good dental hygiene and we were taking the FCLO – however, when I started giving her Vitamin D supplements, her dental checkups improved and now she has been cavity free for at least two years. I am very happy about that. So, FCLO did nothing for our vitamin D levels and we did not see any benefit with regard to dental health either, but once we started taking the vitamin D supplements, there was obvious improvement. I also am not sure now what I think about the Weston Price Foundation now and I am tempted just to go to the Pottenger Price Foundation Website to get unbiased, accurate information.
Sherri says
Maria, could you link to the Thorne supplement you used? How many IU’s a day/caps a day?
Maria says
We use the THORNE brand of supplements/vitamins – you can purchase this brand on Amazon. We used 5000 IU per day for a month for my daughter who had very low levels and now she is taking 2000 IU per day as a maintenance dose. This is what the pediatrician told us to do. THORNE supplements is the brand that our naturopathic doc recommended.
Victor says
Sorry to hear about your nutritional issues. FCLO is certainly not for everyone. However…
Please keep in mind that there are a great many things that we do not yet understand. The FCLO is not to blame here, and is certainly loaded with valuable Vitamin D. There are a great many cofactors that affect a person’s experience with FCLO, including body chemistry and overall diet. The blood tests do NOT reveal the whole story, and this is explained again in recent posts by Dr. Chris Masterjohn and Chris Kresser, among others. Other insightful comments about Vit D testing have been sitting on the Green Pasture site here:
https://www.greenpasture.org/utility/showArticle/index.cfm?objectID=7004
https://www.greenpasture.org/utility/showArticle/index.cfm?objectID=7008
We are still woefully ignorant of life, and yet each generation is arrogant enough to think they have all the answers. The great beauty and genius in the Green Pasture products is that they keep it natural and bioactive. The FCLO and Butter Oil are not considered ‘supplements’ by Dave Wetzel. They are considered foods. Dave constantly points out that we are not capable yet of fully understanding the nutritional profiles of such foods. His views are fully supported by many experts, and the tests.
Consider this: Vitamin D is supposed to be in your cells, not in your blood. Compare this to fat – if you are on a 70% fat diet (with healthy fats), you will be lean and healthy. If you are on a low fat diet, but still consuming bad fats, you are more likely to have fat show up in your blood and stored on your body. A McDonald’s Happy Meal loads your blood with fat, and that is not a good thing. Our body needs and uses fat, but it does not need to ‘store’ it in the blood at some predetermined levels that our scientists have established. Same with Vitamin D. Certainly the FCLO is not the answer for everyone, but it is not deficient in vitamin content. The product, the company, and the WAPF remain a trusted source.
jjoyl says
Just received a huge order… not sure what to think… thanks for the heads up, Kelly. Will have to do some research and curious to hear from Dave.
Elihu says
Also,
If any parents are feeling guilty—don’t!
We strive to make the best decisions we can for our kids based on what is known to us. Are we ever wrong? Sure!
I fed my first two kids formula and started them on cereal around 5 months because that was what I knew about. I was caring for them the best I could with the knowledge I had in hand. Was I wrong? Of course! But my intent has always been to love, nourish and nurture my children and I have done that. I was not willfully ignorant.
My parents cooked with vegetable oil and kept us on a low-fat diet. Was that cruelty on their part? No! They sincerely tried to help us be healthy based on the knowledge they had available to them.
Don’t allow yourself to be consumed by guilt. What’s done is done. Now it’s time to ask questions and do some research to make things better.
KitchenKop says
Thank you for saying that, Elihu, that’s so important and I should’ve said it in my post. (But I was too busy feeling guilty over recommending something that I maybe should not have!)
Kel
Diane says
Thanks for saying this, Elihu! My kids are 14 and 18, and when they were babies I knew nothing of WAP. At the time my pediatrician recommended soy formula as the healthiest thing I could give me baby (I couldn’t breast feed, and my children didn’t seem to tolerate traditional formula). Now I really regret having fed my babies soy formula after reading so many negative things about soy, but I was doing the best that I knew at the time (and with a doctor’s endorsement not less!!) I think we beat ourselves up way too much.
Rob says
Spot on Elihu! Love your words!
shuvanidev says
Ohmygosh – I have to say that this does not look good for Green Pastures FCLO…… and the money I spent on it makes me feel queasy as well. Thank you so much for reporting this Kelly!
Elihu says
My Family is deeply distressed about this! We’ve been giving it to our littles for 4 years! I wasn’t sure what to think. We’ve stopped taking it for now and we’ll be looking for an alternative. This news could be very detrimental to WAPF since they have promoted this product for so long.
KitchenKop says
I know! I’m feeling horrible for having promoted something that might not be the real deal. I hope more info comes out soon!
Kelly