Want to get rid of the bad fats in your kitchen, but confused about healthy fats?
Which fats are good for us, and which are detrimental to our health and cause weight gain? They may not be the ones you think.
I'm going to be very straightforward…
Please don't tell me you still have a tub of “I can't believe it's not butter” in your kitchen? (Read about when the I Can't Believe it's Not Butter people contacted me, ha!) Or sticks of margarine? Or “Promise spread”? Or Crisco? Besides the fact that they're not even real food because of how processed they are, those have trans fats: nasty hydrogenated or partially hydrogenated oils. Even if they say, “Zero Trans Fats per Serving”, check the ingredient label because they can have less than 0.5 grams per serving and still say “zero”, but then they can mess with the serving sizes to get away with this! And if you don't find any trans fats on the label, I guarantee they are made with vegetable oils. I hope you don't have any of those around…right? If so I encourage you to get rid of the bad fats in your kitchen!
What's wrong with vegetable oils?
Corn, Soybean, Canola, Cottonseed, Grape Seed, Margarine, Crisco, etc. are all NEW fats to civilization and they're super-processed and foreign in our bodies. Read “Do fats make us fat?” for more info on why butter is good for us, contrary to what you've heard. With this topic, I try to ask the same questions when searching for the truth as always, and with fats I only have to think about what people have been eating for centuries vs. these new “foods” that have come out in my lifetime…and the resulting effects on our health.
You don't need to look far to find the evidence: cancer, obesity, anxiety and depression, gut disorders, heart disease, immune system dysfunction, sterility, learning disabilities, growth problems, osteoporosis, and more. Vegetable oils are also high in omega 6's, and since we need a good balance of omega 3 and omega 6 fatty acids in our diet for optimum health, when they're unbalanced, they cause inflammation and all sorts of health problems, including gut issues, anxiety, heart disease and weight gain! Read more here: Good Fats, Bad Fats: Separating Fact from Fiction.
NOTE: Keep in mind that palm and coconut are considered vegetable oils, but those are traditional fats — these and other saturated fats are actually very good for you!
So you're wondering, once you get rid of the bad fats, “Well then now what do I cook with?”
- For baking, I use butter, pastured butter is always best, but any butter is better than the alternatives. Use butter proudly, it's good for us! It builds up our immune system and helps to assimilate all the nutrients in the other foods we're eating. By the way, I do not soften it in the microwave, get this: I get out a saucepan to melt it! I know, that thought seemed dreadful to me not that long ago, too, but it's really not difficult. Or set it on the counter ahead of time, easy! (Nowadays I also can use my convection oven on a low setting.) Scroll down a bit here to read the 12 Reasons Why Butter is Better!
- For higher heat pan frying, we use ghee (also called “clarified butter” – which means the milk solids are taken out because it's those that can burn), bacon grease, beef tallow or lard. You could also use coconut oil, and I use the no-flavor coconut oil if I'm making something that a coconut flavor wouldn't pair well with. Mostly I'm frying something quick and the heat doesn't get too high, so I use butter.
- For homemade salad dressings, I always use avocado oil or extra virgin olive oil (EVOO). When making homemade mayo, I'll use avocado oil or sesame oil – these are OK as long as you're not eating too much of these monounsaturated oils. By the way, unless I'm using a lower heat, I don't generally fry with olive oil as the smoke point isn't high enough unless it's a more processed olive oil, which doesn't have as many nutrients left intact. Find quality olive oil here. More: Click here to learn more about the smoke point with olive oil and when it's safe to use for frying.
- For sautéing, I also sometimes use the refined coconut oil (no taste or smell – not quite as good for you as the virgin, but much better than no coconut oil at all), unless I'm cooking something that a coconut flavor would go with, and then I use coconut oil. Ghee is good for this, too. (See this newer post: Why Kent takes a spoonful of coconut oil daily.)
- For deep frying I love using lard or tallow. You can render your own or find a local source. If you can't find it locally, here's where you can find a safe source of beef tallow online. Just watch your smoke point – frying in too high a temp can cause free radicals (cancer causing) to go wild in our bodies. See the link below for a list with smoking points for various oils. (This is also why you shouldn't eat fried foods in restaurants. You never know what oil they're using.)
- For popcorn, I use full flavor organic coconut oil (Read here about why it's SO good for us).
- If I have a recipe that calls for shortening (I don't have many, maybe a homemade pie crust or biscuits), then I'll use this Organic Palm Shortening or softened butter.
- I almost forgot about one of my favorites: Bacon grease – I use that for frying eggs, or pancakes, or other things where a bacon flavor would compliment what you're making. We only get bacon from our local farm where we know the animals are raised well. (Or here's where to find healthy meat online.)
- By the way, palm oil is another healthy oil that you may see on ingredient labels, I tried cooking with it once and didn't like it, though. I may have just had a bad brand. It was red, so maybe that kind just had a taste I didn't care for. It's also important to source palm oil only from those who are using sustainable growing methods!
More reminders about fats/saturated fats:
- The fats in meat are good for you as long as they're from animals raised traditionally in healthy environments, more on in this healthy meat post. If you don't have a good local source for humanely raised, safe healthy meat, here's where I often shop online for our meats.
- Eggs are good for you!
- Don't forget to take your cod liver oil to get natural omega-3's, along with the healthy, natural forms of vitamin A & D.
- Use whole milk dairy only! Preferably from raw dairy sources.
- Healthy fats curb hunger and, like fiber, they slow down the insulin responses in our bodies (especially good for those with blood sugar issues or those who don't want to gain weight.)
Great info on cholesterol & fats:
- Saturated fat remains stable at high heat, making it the preferred choice for cooking over unstable unsaturated fats. Generally speaking, the higher the proportion of saturated fat in an oil, the safer it is to cook with.
- Favor cooking methods that use moderate heat, and avoid cooking with unstable vegetable oils. Very high heat methods, such as grilling, can turn even good fat into trans fat.
Share your comments below. 🙂
- Find all of my posts on healthy fats here.
- Read about when the I Can't Believe it's Not Butter people contacted me. 🙂
- This one is interesting: Margarine then and now.
- Here is a helpful, handy chart from Bryan with the Percentage of Classified Fats for Different Fats and Oils (tells how much omega 6's, omega 3's, saturated fat, polyunsaturated fat, and monounsaturated fat in each)
- Another site full of good info on fats – this was actually the first site I ever read on the topic years ago and I was blown away – it was the first time I'd heard that butter was good for me!
- People with high cholesterol live the longest
- Smoking points for various fats/oils (temperature at which formation of free radicals could occur)
DISCLAIMER:
As with anything and everything you see on this blog, be sure to do your own research before you make any drastic changes in your diet. I don't know what your specific health issues might be and I don't know your health history. However, don't JUST talk to your doctor without researching it yourself, too. Most doctors' main area of expertise is in the field of medicine. I'm not saying that is all bad, but nobody can know everything, so what would be especially helpful is if you had a doctor who is knowledgeable about the natural ways of looking at things, too, and who doesn't necessarily use medicine as a first line of attack. See my full disclaimer below.
Sarah says
Kelly,
Where do you get your information? A lot of it goes against the most current research in the field of nutritional science. Could you verify the credibility of your claims? I am interested to know if you and your family follow these guidelines.. If so does it work for you? Are you and your family members at healthy weights? Perhaps reading up on HDL vs LDL cholesterol would be a good idea for you.
Denise says
History backs up what she is saying. So does Mary Enig, the leading authority on fats today.
here is a sample: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dpFFqN94JE
KitchenKop says
Hi Sarah,
That’s a very good question. Yes, we are healthy, we are rarely sick. I’ve read a lot about cholesterol. I know this is difficult to “swallow” after the mainstream docs have been saying the opposite for 20-50 years, but doesn’t it make sense when you think about it?
Here are a couple post to check out:
https://kellythekitchenkop.com/2013/06/the-true-cause-of-heart-disease.html
https://kellythekitchenkop.com/2014/01/how-to-win-an-argument-with-a-nutritionist.html
Also, look through the posts here: https://kellythekitchenkop.com/2008/08/healthy-fats-oils.html
Let me know if you have any follow-up questions, thanks!
Kelly
Robyn Reid says
I too question this piece of so called information!
To recommend Palm oil I think is fool hardy…this is one of the most dangerous oils for we humans to consume…evidence, facts and history have proven this.
Secondly…you list Grapeseed oil as being one of your bad fats.
I have Fibromyalgia, Resverotrol with Grape seed has been in part a miracle cure for my disease.
To list Grapeseed as a bad fat I will also question!!
It does bother me considerably that you write with such conviction, and so many people believe what they read. Please people, read by all means, but do your own research. Make your self widely informed…especially if your health is already compromised and when considering your childrens health. In other words don’t always believe what you read!
KitchenKop says
Hi Robyn,
Thank you for sharing your opinion here, and especially for reminding people to always do their own research, and not to blindly follow what they read here, what their doctor says, or what they may hear in the media or anywhere else. This is so important to dig in for ourselves and I remind people of this all of the time!
Kelly
Tiffany says
I don’t have access to raw grass fed dairy where I live because it’s illegal, and so it’s not possible for me to get raw grass fed cream & butter, not even pasteurized grass fed cream & butter. The best I can get is certified organic butter which is mostly grass fed but they do supplement with certified organic grains including soy and corn. I could however, cross the borders to the States and stock up on Kerrygold butter from Trader Joe’s. Is Kerrygold going to be better than the one I have now? I’ve heard that Kerrygold cannot guarantee that their grain feed is GMO free, so is it still a good choice?
Jill says
If you can get to Trader Joe’s without too much time and expense, I think Kerrygold is definitely a big step up from regular organic butter because it comes from cows fed almost exclusively on grass. The amount of grain their cows get is going to be far less than the grain the other cows (regular organic butter) are getting, and it is possible that much of it is GMO free, especially since it’s not in America (Kerrygold is in Ireland). I think GMOs dominate here more than other places. Regular organic, in my opinion, is just fine if you can’t get grass fed butter. It’s the good, better, best principle.
Allison says
I almost went with coconut oil, but I don’t have much experience with it yet. Next time!
Allison says
Just found your blog when searching for healthy mayo options! I have a question. I have a recipe for yeast rolls that calls for crisco. Last time I made them I used softened butter instead, but the rolls came out with a hard shell and didn’t brown. Is there a better substitute I should be using? Which oil acts more like crisco?
KitchenKop says
Hmmmm, I’ve always used softened butter and haven’t had a problem? (Here’s my post: https://kellythekitchenkop.com/2008/02/recipe-for-easy-homemade.html)
But I’ll ask this on Facebook and see if we can find out more. 🙂
Kelly
Denise says
Coconut oil and lard.
Allyson Bossie says
Kelly, I am hoping that although this is an old post that you will get this and maybe answer two questions for a virtual newbie struggling to get it right. First, I was wondering in your opinion which is healthier: local dairy butter or Virgin Coconut Oil. I currently use both, but I use VCO other than something like potatoes or baking because it has the higher temp ability.
Also, when you use lard, is it okay to use the big tub of lard from a regular grocer. (NOT Crisco-type products, the tub that says lard) or does my lard need to come from a local farm. Also, on that note, if I can’t find lard, can I render my own from fat I get from the local farm. (I use this when making deer burgers because it has so little fat content).
Thanks in advance
KitchenKop says
Hi Allyson!
You said, “I currently use both, but I use VCO on something like potatoes or baking because it has the higher temp ability” – and that’s perfect! That’s what I do, too. Just try to get local *pastured* butter if you can when you’re using that. I also fry in bacon grease a lot.
I would not use lard from the grocer. Best from a local farm or I actually buy beef tallow here: kellythekitchenkop.cm/healthy-meat.
Yes, you can for sure render your own! Here’s how: https://kellythekitchenkop.com/2009/05/4-steps-to-rendering-fat-for-a-healthy-frying-oil-how-to-make-tallow-how-to-make-lard.html
See you around!
Kelly
Allyson Bossie says
Thanks for the info. I have been cooking properly for a year, and trying to get the DH on board, but he never was-always bringing in junk. That is until the report the other day about Pepsi, Gatoraide, and so may products he eats on a daily basis and what is in the preservatives. I can’t find the link now, but they buried the findings on page 70 of research. He said he was so disturbed that he had been eating this for years, undisclosed and immediately demanded a change at home. I am running with it 😀 and I am fortunate to have two great grass fed farms near buy that sell by the quarter or half of the animal. So much cheaper this way!
Wes says
Jen. Tell me more about bio-available Omega 3s and the deficiency of flax-seed oil.
Chris Brown says
Thanks to Mike F. for actually posting some studies instead of just personal belief.
I agree completely that observational studies don’t prove anything. Proof comes from high-quality randomized controlled trials, which the trials you listed are not.
We do have direct proof from an actual high-quality RCT (the Wadsworth VA study) that replacing animal fat in the diet with vegetable oils (corn, soybean, safflower, and cottonseed, in this case), such that total saturated fat was reduced from 19% to 8% of fat intake, with total fat intake unchanged, resulted in:
– a 31% reduction in cardiovascular deaths
– a 41% reduction in stroke.
We also know from the Oslo Diet-Heart Study that replacing saturated fat with unsaturated fat, esp. soybean oil, caused a 23% reduction in heart attack and sudden death, and a strong strend towards decreased mortality.
We know from the Finnish mental health study that replacing sat fat with high PUFA veg fats, esp. soubean oil, resulted in a 31% reduction in cardiovascular death and a 41% reduction in stroke. p=0.008!
Those are all very direct tests of the hypothesis in question here. They are the best answers anyone could have.
As for Kelly calling me a “troll” and suggesting I am paid by some corporation or industry to promote a particular viewpoint: (1) that is not true, and (2) she should know it isn’t true, as she has my real world e-mail address.
It has become clear that this is not a site about nutrition. This is a site about the dogma of nutrition, or the religion of nutrition. A shared belief, regardless of evidence, is what draws folks to this site. L. Ron Hubbard’s blog or Joseph Smith’s blog, if he had one, would teach you just as much fact-based information about nutrition. This site is for those who have faith and belief in a certain thing, regardless of it’s truth. Nothing less, nothing more.
So, yeah, I don’t belong here, because it would be like walking into a Pentacostal church if you weren’t Pentacostal. Please continue takling to snakes, and eat whatever the heck you want. And if you can, stop for a minute and reflect upon the ethics of recruiting others into your cult, when you have no basis other than “faith” for what you are selling, and yet you are pretending to teach people about nutrition.
Denise says
Chris, the Kelly who called you a troll is not the Kelly who maintains this blog. And I will take the proof of thousands of years of eating over these so called studies you are citing that have been funded by people with an agenda. Good bye Chris. We assume since you said you do not belong here that you are leaving.
We will continue to encourage others, through our “cult”, to healthy and happy living.
Commenter via Facebook says
Thanks to you I threw out my canola oil. Now I need to google rapeseed. :-). Btw it’s empowering to block people that don’t want to learn.
Commenter via Facebook says
There are opinions, and then there are truths. The truth about canola oil is that it is RAPESEED oil with a pseudonym. Ask any auto mechanic what rapeseed oil is used for. Might as well use WD 40… purified and organic that is, ha ha
Commenter via Facebook says
Point taken Darby. I agree about Canola BTW. But if he really is a ‘troll’ why post it to give attention and why comment about it then?
Commenter via Facebook says
I don`t need to read his comments, simple, as our bodies are use to digesting animal fats from generations of doing so. And most canola oil is from GMO canola and is not good for your systems. Enough said.
Commenter via Facebook says
canola is genetically modified
Beverly says
I trust the cow more than the chemist. That is all.
Commenter via Facebook says
Alison, it is okay to call them trolls when they are people using fake personas paid by companies to manipulate public dialogue. This is modus operandi for businesses these days. And said trolls get paid per comment, so the more you indulge the more they make. It’s done heavily in GMO, nuclear, oil (BP) industries. Don’t be fooled. And it IS important for people who run popular pages to notice trolls & delete/ban them; has nothing to do w/ censorship. And duh, canola is crap. 🙂
Carol says
So who is this guy? And how do we know that’s who he is or the other ‘trolls’ out there? I’m not doubting you are right but wondering for the rest of us that don’t know how to recognize these people…I’d like to know for my own self who *hopes* to start blogging more soon…
Commenter via Facebook says
Done! Traditional MDs with inflated egos and angry, feral vegans are always exasperating to ‘debate’ with.
katieb says
Wow—I am FLOORED at the comparison of livestock for consumption to the holocaust and slavery!!!!! Atheistic humanism at it’s finest! Kelly–I too learned a couple of years ago there is NO such thing as ‘debating’ with a feral vegan—they are the only right ones. Period. Of course, what they don’t realize is that all that hostility more than likely is caused from a fatty acid deficiency from eating all those grains and PUFA oils. The years when I was a strict vegan/vegetarian were some of the UNHEALTHIEST in my life—-the fatigue, weight gain, inability to get muscle tone even with 2 hours of working out daily, the food cravings and binge eating. All caused from my body desperately begging for quality protein and healthy fats. I cringe at any MDs who still tow the vegetable oils are best line. I have no comment for feral, angry vegans. Traditional foods have saved my health and that of my family. In fact, ditching traditional medicine has opened up an amazing world of health and wellness for my family. I’ll bet Dr. Chris still recommends and uses flouride toothpaste and flouride drops for infants too, huh? Vegans like Joel running the world would put every person living with Celiac in an early grave because he would force whole grains and soy on us, believing that we just needed more ‘healthy’ grains to heal, or that Celiac is EXTREMELY rare…….Mmmmm….butter…..mmmmm….steak….
Leslie Genchi says
Chris uh Brown,
I’m onto you and glad you posted here. First off, there are MANY studies done on Lard and animal fat being a good fat. You have to look deeper than a scientific study. That’s ridiculous..Science guessed wrong on the heart disease cause/cholesterol thing anyway. They were wrong! For how many years!? Explain why since we eliminated animal fats and sun canola etc, why hasn’t heart disease gone down? What!? It’s gone up? Hmm. I guess the “science” hasn’t fixed it! Look at the nutritional content and fat breakdown of lard, it’s the closest fat profile to breast milk!! It’s sad you entered school with such a closed mind. I guess they have you right where they want you. So sad and the reason I RUN from nurses and doctors. They know NOTHING about health or nutrition. You do your “studies” and we will do ours.
As for mummies!? Really?! That was your aha moment!? First of all that article clearly states that it is hard to know what caused the heart disease. They actually said that it was also caused by trauma, famine and disease. It also mentions that the main diet staple was bread. They have bread at EVERY meal. A highly glutinous pita bread. Then dessert. A sugar syrupy cake. So that explains it for me..it falls in line with what we already know…processed sugar and breads cause inflammation which cause heart disease. Read between the lines. You read one line that says they ate goats so that’s the WHOLE cause of their health problems…listen to yourself, you have been brainwashed by the government and school system. Open your mind and “search” for these studies…they r out there but you can’t go searching in a school that wants to make u believe science is curing everything..that and big pharma!
Commenter via Facebook says
Don’t feed the troll!!!
Commenter via Facebook says
Egyptians diet is a highly glutinous pita bread and bread is the main staple in their diet, that and dessert..with sugar syrup. It irritates me when people believe “peer studies” and “medical articles” we all know those are paid for..ugh, well I feel sorry for him and his family. Everyone I thought knew canola oil is unhealthy and GMO. You should never heat olive oil…
Commenter via Facebook says
You are good Kelly!! I see Lots of people have your back!
Commenter via Facebook says
Well the government is obviously the one to trust in this issue, Heather! Look at what our Congress just passed and the President just signed protecting Monsanto.
Carol says
I have a lot of things I could say to this comment, but have little time. While your perspective is clearly based on ‘scientific’ studies with numbers you like because they collaberate what your ‘numbers’ are currently demonstrating on your lab work, I also know a lot of men could say the same thing before they hit midlife…late 30’s is not quite there. I wouldn’t make any bets that you would remain that way in the next ten – 20 years eating this way.
Mummies? I would hardly consider mummies as a reason to back up your theory on canola oil.
Peer Reviewed Studies mean nothing.
Oh, I know, you’re probably already laughing and rolling in your grave (which may or may not happen sooner if you keep consuming the canola oil, etc. unless your just one of the lucky few who has well, LUCK)…. but peer reviewed studies are ‘reviewed’ by like minded ‘scientists’…. The China Study was an excellent ‘peer reviewed’ study too…. but still had it’s flaws. The man doing the China Study didn’t even consider GMO vs. Organic vs. grassfed, etc. So how could it possibly be a completely conclusive study, peer reviewed or not? It’s not. There is plenty of scietific studies out there to support what Kelly is (wonderfully) attempting to teach the publilc… not in journals? Because that, obviously, would lead to pharmaceutical companies, hosptials, and the government losing big time money if people got healthy. And if you dont want to believe that connection, don’t. Continue living your life believing your healthy. Leave the rest of us along as we go on living our truly healthy lifestyles not based on luck or the doctor bills the average American has to pay.
Kelly- Don’t worry about these naysayers who try to use ‘science’ as their backup. I laugh daily in the face of science who claim bipolar disorder CAN’T be cured. Ha! I know it can be. Take that to your peer reviews.
Mike F says
I could be wrong but I don’t think the China Study was ever peer reviewed.
Carol says
It definitely was. I think that’s what made it, unfortunately, quite well known.
Denise says
Mike, the original China Study itself was not peer reviewed but there are dozens of peer reviewed papers out there that are based on the China Study. The China Study is one of the most flawed poorly done studies in history.
Carol says
I totally agree with the flaws….wish I could ‘prove’ that to my vegan sister 🙁 I doubt that it would matter to her when the peer reviews were done. That’s what she goes by.
Commenter via Facebook says
AMEN Sally!
Commenter via Facebook says
These two guys are not worth arguing with Joel is clearly a vegan and Chris is an older Dr. They don’t want science, they want their science. Waste of energy!
Commenter via Facebook says
Refer him to Mary Enig — Leading expert on
lipids https://coconutoil.com/mary_enig/
Commenter via Facebook says
Calling him a troll isn’t helpful I don’t think. There are lots of differing opinions out there. If we call each other names, we shut each other off and minds are closed to an open discussion to see each others point of view. Even Olive Oil can be bad for you if it isn’t cold pressed. The only comment I would make is about the Egyptians. Didn’t they use a lot of wheat? If wheat is not prepared properly, it can cause that too, and dairy, and soy, but I don’t know what if any of that they consumed. I don’t think one can just assume it was animal fats. There are so many factors.
Commenter via Facebook says
Certain people feel very insecure and have the need to “put someone in their place”. Especially when they see a really smart person sharing what they know. I would just either delete him or ignore him.
Commenter via Facebook says
The Oiling of America – Sally Fallon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvKdYUCUca8
Commenter via Facebook says
Why bother….he’s obviously made up his mind…let him eat canola!
Krista says
It always amazes me that people like this even bother to hang around websites or blogs that they so obvoiusly disagree with! Why? Just enjoy arguing? Maybe I should head over to the ‘Physicians For Responsible Medicine’ page so I can argue with everything THEY post….but I won’t, because it’s a waste of time and energy. I’d rather stay here among like minded people, exchanging usable information.
Carol says
I totally agree. Don’t they have anything better to do? Read some more ‘peer review studies’ maybe? LOL
Gail Shupe says
If I had an olive tree I could make olive oil in my kitchen. If I have cream I can make butter in my kitchen. If I have coconuts, I can make coconut oil in my kitchen. If I have tallow or lard, I can render animal fats in my kitchen. I cannot, however, make canola oil in my kitchen no matter how much rapeseed I have. Thanks, but no thanks. And yes, we consume things that would be unwieldy to make in a home kitchen (small amounts of cane sugar, maple syrup and the like) but the fact remains that even those things are not that far removed from their natural state. Canola oil? You need a nasty chemical (hexane) in order to complete the extraction process. And people think it’s okay to eat this stuff? Whether or not it’s artery-clogging is beside the point. If YOU want to eat it, have at it. Leaves more butter and lard for me.
Ron says
Well said Gail!!
Carol says
LOVE it!
Krista says
This is interesting, but I have to wonder…why try so hard to convince these two (Joel and Chris) of the error of their ways? They want to mainline extracted unhealthy oils? Let em! More coconut oil and lard for the rest of us, I say….
Dallas Vegan says
Chris is actually correct in several areas. I went vegetarian in 2010, then went vegan in 2012. Why? Not for the animal issue sake, but when you have 2 family members get cancer in 2011, there is a wake up call. I became obsessed with nurtirion and disease prevention. Am I a professional nutrionist, no. I hit midlife and had to make a 360 degree change on my diet. I actually follow Brendan Brazier’s Thrive diet suggestions. My physical in 2011 was great having gone vegetarian, but it was ideal and excellent when I had mine another physical in December 2012. Actually my protein had gone up and so did my calcium. My body is able to absorb the nutrients better. I follow a high dense nutrtion diet. As far as vegetable oils, some of the information above is misleading. I stay away from “vegetable oil”, however, I use plant based oils. Some of the oils I use are not to be heated, but added after cooking or to be used in a cold dish (Vega antioxidant omega oil blen, Udo’s oil 369 blend, flax seed oil, hemp oil and pumpkin seed oil). For cooking I just use olive oils and for a spread and “butter” sticks I used Earth Balance (organics) these do not have hydorgenated oils. I have gone over 3 years without hydorgenated oils. I am now down 80lbs with no health problems and have an ideal blood profile at the age of 46 and my body feels great! Do I wish I had taken better control of my diet at an earlier age and wish I had never gotten into the typical western fatty diet, certainly.
Jen says
Yes, everybody here does those things, too, EXCEPT the Earth Balance crap you eat. Organic or not, it still contains canola and soybean oil which is highly processed with about 100 manufacturing steps. It’s immediately rancid when pressed and then deodorized so you’ll actually buy it and eat it. Sounds wonderful. More power to ya. Eat it all you want. It’s filled with an over abundance of Omega 6’s which will cause inflammation. If it’s hasn’t caught up to you yet, it will.
PLUS we also eat pastured-based meats and fats from our local farmers which are high in bioavailable Omega 3s (unlike your flaxseed oil). We also avoid genetically modified foods and processed foods.
Personally when I did that, I lost a ton of weight, my blood cholesterol went down, my mood stabilized. I’m happy and my food is amazingly delicious.
Wes says
Tell me more about bio-available Omega 3s and the deficiency of flax-seed oil.
Denise says
Dallas, there are thousands of accounts like yours and the improvements are real. But the reason is because of all the junk food that is eliminated when going on these “fad” diets. That would encourage weight loss and improved health in anyone.
However, the vegan diet, for which you can find no documentation in history as it is unnatural, is not sustainable long term. It creates nutrient deficiencies which can be very harmful.
As for Earth Balance, why would anyone choose a product that has over a dozen ingredients and is highly processed, over one that God gave us and has one ingredient – cream? The canola and soy in Earth Balance make it a “no no” even though they say it is GMO free. Soy is goitrogenic and canola (rapeseed) is toxic to humans unless highly processed. All this work to improve on something which can not be improved!
And actually, if your protein and calcium have gone up – I am assuming in your blood work – that means the protein and calcium are not where they belong, which is in the bones and tissue. Calcium levels are only up when the body has to draw out calcium from the bones because it is not getting enough good quality calcium in the diet. Might want to research that a little.
Dallas Vegan says
Thank you for the feedback on the Earth Balance. I probably should not have mentioned it, as I rarely have used it. I did forget to mention the coconut oil, now that I do use.
Yes, my blood profile was defined as ideal from medical researchers and physicians. I have no deficiencies. Keep in mind, most of my diet is raw. And I do not use synthetic supplements.
When making judgements on one’s diet, which is not a “fad”, please make sure you have all the facts. I was not preaching to go vegan, I was stating my own experience. Not all diets are the same. Like I said before, I am following for the most part Thriveforward.com’s diet mixed with Rich Roll’s plan. I am doing this diet for disease prevention. Do I have a compassion for animals, yes, but that is not my main reason. Actually, after reading “Animal Factory” by David Kirby, I had more of an understanding on the impact of the people and the destruction of their local farms and communities that the CAFO’s had on them. But, I am not here to talk people into going on a plant based diet, this topic is about the oils.
Commenter via Facebook says
one of my friends said the same thing and that coconut oil is really bad…then linked me to the CDC website
Commenter via Facebook says
Troll, isn’t worth arguing with…..All you can do is give people the correct info….what they do with it isn’t your business.
Rachel says
Also – I’d like to add that your IQ, waist size, and ACT scores mean nothing to me. Book smarts and wisdom are vastly different things. Maybe your stats will impress someone else. I am a 34 year old mother of two with my BA in English who works from home. I am 10 pounds over my idealized American values weight and I’m sure my BMI is 30 something. I am incessantly joyful, peaceful, and content because of all of the good yummy saturated fats, butter, cod liver oil, etc running through my blood and nourishing my brain!
Vanessa – You owe it to your family to do your own research. The book Nourishing Traditions changed my family forever… It’s a small price to invest in the future health of yourself and future generations. I implore you to listen to what rings true to you. There are a lot of “facts,” “pyramids,” “studies,” etc out there but the truth will be found when you seek it. 🙂
Denise says
Rachel, 🙂 🙂 🙂 LOL!
vanessa says
I have been, and even found a bread recipes that calls for melted butter instead of canola! 🙂
Commenter via Facebook says
Ugh… Some people just need to get a life…!
Rachel says
Chris – this blog and website is full of wonderful information for those of us who believe in the traditional cultural wisdom that sustained our ancestors for thousands of years. Degenerative disease was unknown until the 1900s when processed foods and vegetable oils were introduced. We follow the work of the brilliant dentist (the father of the American Dental Association) Dr. Weston A Price as well as Sally Fallon Morrel and others. I am appalled that someone who is obviously as intelligent as you are has nothing better to do with their time than attack this blog article that offers a differing, fact based, opinion than yours. I will not get into a battle of facts with you. There are “studies” out there to prove anything and everything… I’m sure most of the studies you site were funded by the FDA by government money that came from big ag business. I would just implore you to find a blog that agrees with your opinions and find like minds that you can commune with. Stop wasting your time and our time trying to convince us of something that we clearly don’t believe. Most of us who eat traditional diets have incredibly robust and healthy families. We don’t need any other proof than that – so don’t waste your breath trying to convince us!
Chris Brown says
incidentally, olive oil is 71% oleic acid (a MUFA), and 11% PUFA, of which 10:1 is omega-6:omega-3. canola oil is 62% oleic acid and 32% PUFA, of which 22:10 is omega-6:omega-3. so the omega-3/omega-6 balance is much better in canola oil is much better than in olive. anyone who argues olive oil is healthy but canola oil is magically bad for you has a lot of proving their case to make, because when you look at what’s in them, it makes NO sense.
meanwhile, lard and butter are about 24-27% palmitic acid, the most atherogenic saturated fatty acid there is. if you are getting your butter from grass-fed cows, the fatty acid profile improves dramatically, as it only has about half as much palmitic acid. but how many of you are actually getting your butter from grass-fed cows?
Erin says
I would dare say a good number of readers of a blog like this. We do, or I make my own from milk from grass-fed cows
vanessa says
ugh…so confusing. I hear canola is ok, canola is bad. I find just as many articles that say its good, as bad. :/
Chris Brown says
well, they just did arguably the best ever randomized controlled trial on eating more olive oil, and it was definitely good for you, so if in doubt, olive oil is a good bet.
there were also good trials done in the 1970s with (NOT hydrogenated!) soybean oil that showed it was heart healthy, and soybean oil has a considerably worse omega-3/omega-6 ratio than does canola.
if olive is healthy and soybean is somewhat healthy, it’s hard to imagine canola being not at least somewhat healthy.
there was a study in the late 60s/early 70s involving a high-safflower oil diet, and the high safflower diet was BAD. this effect could have been because (1) safflower oil contains tons of omega-6 fatty acids and almost no omega-3s, or (2) because one of the sunflower products used in the trial, “Miracle Margarine” actually contained a large amount of partially hydrogenated oil, i.e. trans fat, which is pretty much the most toxic oil you could eat.
Denise says
Vanessa, please don’t let Chris confuse you. He is only here to contradict everything real food adherants believe. Scroll back and see some of the posts.
GMOs: https://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/07/05-0
https://earthopensource.org/index.php/news/60-why-genetically-engineered-food-is-dangerous-new-report-by-genetic-engineers
The report is the next link.
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/prop37/pages/67/attachments/original/1348032282/Peer_reviewed_studies_on_GM_food_health_risks.pdf?1348032282
This one is very recent and quite disturbing:
https://sustainablepulse.com/2013/03/21/new-study-shows-govt-regulators-fail-on-new-gm-plants-safety/#.UVUYnWLh6AA
KitchenKop says
Vanessa, Chris has fallen for what “the professionals” have said are true, but all you need is common sense to figure this out.
What have people been eating for centuries? NOT Canola – which is now the one of the biggest GMO crops out there and is a fake food. (Google “GMO dangers” if you’re unsure what they are.)
Instead, what we’ve eaten for years and years is animal fats from animals living life out on pasture and fed what they’re meant to eat, so they’re healthy, and when we eat these fats, it is protective in our bodies and builds up our immune system.
There is TONS of information out there about this and even many mainstream docs are now saying that butter and coconut oil are good for you and do NOT cause heart disease. Heart disease is caused by inflammation, which is caused by FAKE fats in our diet, too much sugar, and other crap foods. (How’s that for professional lingo? LOL.)
We also eat olive oil, but mostly in salad dressings and only quality kinds.
Hope that helps a little. Just don’t blindly believe me OR Chris. Do some research and listen to common sense and you’ll do fine. 🙂
Kelly
Chris Brown says
If it is common sense that eating saturated fats from animals is so good for you, can you explain why 1/3 of egyptian mummies recently studied had clogged coronary arteries? Was it the GMO canola?
The science on this topic could not be clearer. We have good randomized, controlled trials which you choose to ignore. We also have massive longitudinal studies (for example, the Nurses’ Health Study), that showed that intake of mono-unsaturated and poly-unsaturated fatty acids is strongly INVERSELY correlated with developing heart disease.
You can believe someone who (1) has studied the literature extensively, (2) understands what he is reading (e.g. perfect score on his ACT reading comp, MCAT reading comp, winner of an event at the National Science Olympiad, decorated military physician), and (3) eats healthy and lives healthy everyday and has the labs and fitness to prove it (LDL and HDL both in the 70s, a CRP<1, a BMI of 23, a waist of 31 inches, and a sub 24 minute 5k time in my late 30s). Or you can choose to believe low-quality science that can't even manage to get publish in a decent peer-reviewed journal.
The "fake" fat that is bad for people is partially hydrogenated oil. We have immense evidence for this in the lab, in cholesterol panels, and in longitudinal studies. Somehow equating canola oil to partially hydrogenated soybean oil is like equating light with dark. I was helping to fight McDonalds not very many years ago when they still used partially hydrogenated oil in their fries.
Also, eating pasture-raised meats and milk and butter is immensely healthier than eating grain-fed beef and butter from store-bought cows.
Do those last two statements sound like someone who is an industry shill or can't think on his own? Of course not. I just disagree with Kelly and Denise on unsaturated fat in common oils because there is an IMMENSE body of credible scientific evidence that they are wrong, and the only evidence on their side comes from anecdote, from quacks (Weston A. Price), and from science so bad it couldn't make it into a real journal.
Mike F says
Wow, look at you! I’m so impressed… pft…
Chris, Ancient Egyptian’s also ate lots of grains. Throwing the Egyptians out as an example and then moving on doesn’t add anything to this conversation. The biggest problem with Canola is the manufacturing process it undergoes. It is subjected to hexane and high heat which damages the delicate omega-3 fats in the seed. Monounsaturated fat is promoted by this group… however it has to come from a source that isn’t subjected to high heat… which is why there is such an emphasis on olive oil.
The science is not clear. There are countless conflicting studies. And by the way, observational studies, like Willets nurses study, don’t “show” anything. They merely provide hypothesis’s for clinical testing. And as Gary Taubes has noted everything clinical trial that put to the test recommendations by Dr. Willet from the Nurses Health study have all failed to prove him right.
Saturated fat is not a villain and high polyunsaturated fat diets from processed oils are not benign.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20071648?dopt=AbstractPlus
“CONCLUSIONS:
A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD. More data are needed to elucidate whether CVD risks are likely to be influenced by the specific nutrients used to replace saturated fat.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20685950?dopt=AbstractPlus
“CONCLUSION:
SFA intake was inversely associated with mortality from total stroke, including intraparenchymal hemorrhage and ischemic stroke subtypes, in this Japanese cohort.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9417007?dopt=AbstractPlus
“CONCLUSION:
Intakes of fat, saturated fat, and monounsaturated fat were associated with reduced risk of ischemic stroke in men.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15531663?dopt=AbstractPlus
“CONCLUSIONS:
In postmenopausal women with relatively low total fat intake, a greater saturated fat intake is associated with less progression of coronary atherosclerosis, whereas carbohydrate intake is associated with a greater progression.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18710653?dopt=AbstractPlus
“Using primary cultures of cortical neurons, we show that 22:5omega-6 is efficiently acylated and preferentially taken up over DHA. However, DHA, but not 22:5omega-6 supports growth of secondary neurites. Our results suggest the need to consider whether current high dietary omega-6 fatty acid intakes compromise brain DHA accretion and contribute to poor neurodevelopment.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15051845?dopt=AbstractPlus
“Thus, saturated fat protected rats from alcoholic liver disease in a dose-responsive fashion. Changes in dietary fat composition did not alter ethanol metabolism or CYP2E1 induction, but hepatic CYP4A levels increased markedly in rats fed the saturated fat diet. Dietary saturated fat also decreased liver triglyceride, PUFA, and total FFA concentrations (P < 0.05). Increases in dietary saturated fat increased liver membrane resistance to oxidative stress. In addition, reduced alcoholic steatosis was associated with reduced fatty acid synthesis in combination with increased CYP4A-catalyzed fatty acid oxidation and effects on lipid export. These findings may be important in the nutritional management and treatment of alcoholic liver disease."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9351376?dopt=AbstractPlus
"In conclusion, the MUFA-enriched diet reduced SMC DNA synthesis and LDL levels and protected LDL from oxidation. Therefore, these combined effects suggest that an oleic acid-rich Mediterranean diet could be better than PUFA (n-6)- or PUFA (n-3)-rich diets in the prevention of atherosclerosis."
And furthermore… WTH are you doing having this conversation on this site? If you feel so morally and intellectually superior then why don't you have this conversation with a more science oriented audience? Perhaps you should be commenting on WholeHealthSource, or Perfect Health Diet, or Cholesterol-and-health.com sites.
You're not going to find satisfaction here.
Jenn says
Wealthy ancient Egyptians? Really? What I learned in Art History class: The only people who could afford to be mummified in ancient Egypt were the wealthy. The wealthy could also afford to eat something the masses never could: white flour, with all the lovely whole-grain goodness removed. There are numerous examples in tomb art of little hierogylphic servants sifting and filtering all of the bran and germ out of the flour. So those wealthy people with the clogged arteries were eating super-white flour all day long – which certainly has an effect on blood insulin levels, and therefore clogged arteries. Egyptologists even trace members of the royal family because they had a unique distorted skull shape (sounds a little like that “quack” Weston Price’s research into nutrition and skull & jaw formation, doesn’t it?)
Wes says
Don’t argue with Chris. He is smart, educated, and fair. We are uneducated, stupid and biased – or at least you are.
vanessa says
thank you maam! I have found a bread recipes that calls for melted butter instead of canola! I have been working for the past year at ridding my home of toxins,all my cleaners and laundry soap are home made, and also slowly switching processed foods to real foods. Its a slow process only bc of budget, but we are slowly getting there, and I’m proud to be able to take care of my family! Keep up the good work! I enjoyed listening to you on Healthy Life Summit! 🙂
vanessa says
I make my own bread. I use whole wheat white flour, but I also use canola oil, which is what the recipe calls for. What can I replace the canola oil with? I am working hard to rid my home of toxins, and harmful foods. Thanks!
Chris Brown says
Why on earth would you want to replace canola oil? Canola oil is great for you, but you could replace it with olive oil, which is arguably even better, and was found to reduce heart disease in a recent large randomized controlled study.
Melissa @ Real Food Eater says
Why on earth would I want to replace it? Because it’s from the rapeseed plant which is actually toxic to humans unless it’s chemically processed (most all brands in the U.S. use hexane to refine it)
Plus, it is almost always genetically modified. Not to mention, it’s high in euricic acid which is known to be toxic. They do breed today’s plants to be lower in that acid and it’s sold “assumed” safe for human consumption.
That’s why. I’d rather eat something REAL than something that has to be processed.
Erin says
For my homemade bread, I use a tbsp of melted (grass-fed) butter per loaf, or sometimes a tbsp of coconut oil if I am running low on butter
Denise says
Vanessa, you are correct that you should not use the canola oil. Most of the canola today is genetically modified and is very unhealthy. What is not is usually rancid by the time it gets to the shelves.
Lard is great in breads, but hard to get. I like a combination of butter and coconut oil but have also used just coconut oil. I know several people who use no oil in their bread. So experiment.
The guidelines in this article are great for choosing healthy fats. And here is a link about the GMOs, which some people don’t believe are unhealthy, but have been proven otherwise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87qrTXZaXkk
Chris Brown says
Denise,
you’ve never cited one high-quality peer-reivewed journal article to back up any of your false assertions.
try posting your junk in a fact-based forum like WikiPedia and see how long it stays up there. it wouldn’t last a day because you don’t have reputable source; only conspiracy theory. sad to see you scaring people.
Chris Brown says
Well, well, well… one group eats a lot of vegetable oil and lives longer; the other group eats less vegetable oil and dies sooner. In the highest quality randomized controlled diet trial this decade, if not ever.
It looks like medical science just definitively proved (well, proved again), that Weston A. Price is killing you.
Of course, I know you’ll keep doing what you are doing anyway. Good luck with that.
Marylynn says
I’m not gung-ho about any particular eating style other than eating non-processed as much as possible, but I wonder: did you actually a) read the article, and b) think about what is being promoted on this site?
The study compared people on a low-fat diet and people on higher fat diet that focused on oily fish, nuts, and olive oil for fat sources.
The control group (low-fat diet) was discouraged from eating vegetable fat, meat fat, dairy fat, nuts, and oily fish. I don’t believe this is a diet that anyone here would condone.
I don’t think anyone here would argue that oily fish, nuts, and olive oil are good for you. I don’t think anyone here would argue that low-fat is just not healthy.
Critical thinking is critical when one is being critical.
Denise says
Touche, Marilyn. I am glad someone replied. I have decided to ignore Chris but was itching to respond to that one. You are exactly right. The link supports what Kelly wrote!
Denise says
Thanks! 🙂 🙂 🙂 You are very kind.
PRae Becquart says
Quote by ‘Pure Indian Foods’ –
“On the other hand, vegetable oils burn when cooked. There is now developing controversy in medical science about which oils are better for us. Traditional cooking oils in all cultures have been ghee, coconut oil, or lard. The saturated fats hold up under heating, and ghee has been used for thousands of years. Proper use of food is a cultural achievement that takes thousands of years to perfect, whereas medical science changes its ideas of what is important every couple of decades.”
There’s not a controversy in my opinion – I know what works for my health, enough said!
(Denise – you are awesome!)
Denise says
Denise, your estimate of your level of understanding is many fold higher than your actual level of understanding.
SO WE HAVE LOWERED OURSELVES TO INSULTS, HAVE WE? I HAVE NEVER ESTIMATED MY LEVEL OF UNDERSTANDING. IF I DON’T UNDERSTAND SOMETHING, I RESEARCH. MY IQ IS 129 AND I GRADUATED MAGNA CUM LAUDE. I ENJOY LEARNING AND RESEARCH AND MY ONLY REGRET IS THAT I KNOW SO LITTLE AND MY TIME HERE WILL ALLOW ME TO LEARN ONLY A LITTLE MORE. BUT THAT WILL BE REMEDIED ON THE NEW EARTH WHEN I WILL BE ABLE TO LEARN WITHOUT END WHAT MY INFINITE GOD HAS FOR ME TO LEARN.
Firstly, my “dangerously low” LDL level happens to be the same (40-70) as that of hunter-gatherer human societies and other free-living primates.
FIRST – FIRSTLY IS NOT, TRADITIONALLY, A WORD – THESE HUNTER-GATHERERS THAT YOU MENTION HISTORICALLY ATE A LARGE AMOUNT OF MEAT. THEY EVEN MADE THINGS LIKE PEMMICAN TO PRESERVE THEIR MEAT FOR TIMES WHEN IT WOULD BE LESS AVAILABLE. THEY SUBSISTED ON OTHER FOODS UNTIL MEAT WAS AGAIN EASILY OBTAINED AND OFTEN THEIR HEALTH SUFFERED. THEIR LEVELS TO WHICH YOU REFER WERE ACHIEVED AND ENJOYED WHILE EATING MEAT – AND A LOT OF ORGAN MEAT AT THAT.
Secondly, my HDL is not low but above average.
SECONDLY, I DID NOT SAY YOUR HDL WAS LOW. YOUR HDL IS EXCELLENT.
Thirdly, my HDL/LDL and HDL to total cholesterol ratios are associated with a vastly lower risk of coronary artery disease and ischemic stroke than average. Hemorrhagic stroke, which is more common in Asians but less common in Westerners, is MUCH LESS COMMON than CAD or ischemic stroke. So WHO CARES if my risk of some uncommon things goes up when my risk of common things goes down?
THIRDLY, I AM VERY AWARE OF THE RATIOS AND THEIR RELATION TO DISEASE. YOU DON’T APPEAR TO BE AWARE THAT SOMEONE CAN HAVE A TOTAL CHOLESTEROL THAT IS SOMEWHAT HIGHER AND STILL HAVE HEALTHY RATIOS. MY WORD “LOW” REFERENCED YOUR TOTAL CHOLESTEROL LEVEL.
Hemorrhagic stroke is also STRONGLY correlated to high blood pressure, and since I started eating healthy, my diastolic has dropped from the 80s to the 60s, so my risk of hemorrhagic stroke is happily quite low.
MY FATHER-IN-LAW HAD VERY GOOD BLOOD PRESSURE AND DIED OF A HEMORRHAGIC STROKE. WE CAN ALWAYS FIND EXCEPTIONS. I HAVE A FRIEND FROM HIGH SCHOOL WHO EATS GARBAGE EVERY DAY OF HER LIFE AND AT THE AGE OF 49 LOOKS LIKE SHE IS IN HER 20s AND ENJOYS ROBUST HEALTH AND AN ACTIVE LIFESTYLE. GIVEN THAT BOTH OF HER PARENTS HAVE HAD CANCER, I DON’T KNOW THAT SHE WILL CONTINUE LIKE THAT. I CAN ALSO CITE PEOPLE WHO SMOKE THEIR WHOLE LIVES AND DIE AT 80 IN APPARENT GOOD HEALTH.
WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT. THEIR IS NOT ONE UNIFORM PRESCRIPTION THAT CAN FIT EVERYONE. IF JOEL CAN EAT REFINED RANCID OILS, ESCHEW REAL FOOD AS IT HAS BEEN EATEN FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS, AND REJECT ANY STUDY WHICH DOES NOT LINE UP WITH HIS PRECONCEIVED THEORIES AND MAINTAIN GOOD HEALTH, I AM ALL FOR HIM – AND YOU – DOING THAT.
IF CAN PUT MY R.A., LUPUS, FIBROMYALGIA, CHRONIC FATIGUE, EPSTEIN BARR, HASHIMOTO’S, VITILIGO, A COAGULATION DISORDER, AND OTHER CONDITIONS IN REMISSION BY EATING A REAL FOOD WESTON A. PRICE TYPE DIET, WHY WOULD YOU NOT WISH ME WELL AND LEAVE IT AT THAT?
DIFFERENT PEOPLE RESPOND TO DIFFERENT DIETS IN DIFFERENT WAYS. I BELIEVE VEGAN AND VEGETARIANISM, IN GENERAL, ARE NOT GOOD FOR THE LONG TERM. YOU BELIEVE THE DIET WHICH HAS RESULTED IN CHANGES THAT MY SPECIALISTS CAN’T EXPLAIN AND AT WHICH THEY ARE AMAZED IS A POOR DIET. FINE.
THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT I HAVE NOT USED SARCASM AND RIDICULE TO TRY TO CHANGE YOUR MIND. I DON’T WANT TO CHANGE YOUR MIND. THERE IS NO ARGUING WITH IGNORANCE. AND THAT IS NOT AN INSULT- IT SIMPLY MEANS LACK OF ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE.
WE BOTH KNOW STUDY RESULTS ARE DISHONESTLY MANIPULATED ON A REGULAR BASIS – JUST AS YOU MADE THE STATEMENT THAT THE MASAI LIVE TO AN AVERAGE AGE OF 43 AND CONVENIENTLY LEFT OUT THAT THE CAUSES OF THEIR EARLY DEATHS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH DIET. WE CAN THROW STUDIES AT EACH OTHER AD NAUSEUM AND ACCOMPLISH NOTHING. I WANT YOU TO HAVE THE RIGHT TO EAT AS YOU WISH AND AS BENEFITS YOU THE MOST.
People like you have no ability to interpret data or integrate the whole picture. All you do is seek out things that fit your pre-conceived notions. If you want to believe that eating a slab of bacon four times a week is great for you, go believe it, but it’s truly sad that people substitute things like Weston Price for real science and then spread that misinformation to others. There are so many people like you on this page that it is not about “healthy eating,” rather it is a Church for people who believe a certain sort of diet dogma.
THERE IS THAT “PEOPLE LIKE’ YOU PHRASE AGAIN. I HAVE A PRETTY DECENT ABILITY TO “INTERPRET DATA AND INTEGRATE THE WHOLE PICTURE, AS I HAVE BEEN A RESEARCHER FOR OVER 30 YEARS. I DO NOT EAT FOUR SLABS OF BACON A WEEK. I DO NOT SPREAD MISINFORMATION. I SHARE WITH PEOPLE THE INFORMATION THAT A BRILLIANT MAN SPENT MANY YEARS OF HIS LIFE TRAVELING AND GATHERING. THIS INFORMATION IS BACKED UP AND DOCUMENTED WITH AN AMAZING NUMBER OF PHOTOS AND VERIFYING DOCUMENTS – UNLIKE THE FALSIFIED STUDIES OFTEN WRITTEN UP IN PUBLICATIONS LIKE JAMA AND OTHERS.
OF COURSE, THE RESEARCHERS’ GOAL, IN GENERAL, IS TO MAKE MORE MONEY AND RECEIVE MORE GRANTS FROM THE GOVERNMENT. WESTON PRICE’S GOAL, WHICH HE FINANCED WITH HIS OWN MONEY AND TIME, WAS TO BRING PEOPLE REAL FACTS AND STUDIES THAT WOULD RESULT IN IMPROVED HEALTH AND WELLBEING FOR THEM. MY KIND OF “SCIENCE”!
YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ME. I COULD BE A RESEARCH SCIENTIST. I HAPPEN TO VERY GOOD AT RESEARCH AND RETAIN MUCH OF WHAT I LEARN. I NEVER READ JUST ONE SIDE. I ALWAYS HAVE THREE OR FOUR BOOKS GOING AT ONCE. I JUST FINISHED “THE NEW ARTHRITIS BREAKTHROUGH” AND ALSO TY BOLLINGER’S “CANCER: STEP OUTSIDE THE BOX”. WILL NEED TO READ THAT ONE SEVERAL MORE TIMES, AS IT IS A GOLDMINE.
I AM CONSTANTLY STUDYING. I NEED TO BE – I HOMESCHOOL MY CHILDREN AND NEED TO STAY ON TOP OF THINGS. I, UNLIKE SOME, DO NOT BELIEVE I HAVE “ARRIVED” AND THEREFORE CLOSE MY MIND TO LEARNING MORE. I AM ALWAYS OPEN TO THOSE WHO THOUGHTFULLY AND WITHOUT SARCASM AND RIDICULE PRESENT INFORMATION.
Back to my day job. Which I love, because in the market, when people like you can’t come to grips that their thinking is wrong, they lose money. Whereas those who interpret the data correctly make money. It is a lovely meritocracy.
PLEASE ENJOY MAKING MONEY FROM OTHERS’ INVESTMENTS. I AM GOING TO GO READ SOME MORE ON GMOs, WHICH YOU CONSIDER SO SAFE, SO I AM PREPARED TO PRESENT THE PEOPLE WHO WILL BE LISTENING TO THE RADIO SHOW I WILL BE ON, IMPORTANT INFORMATION IN ORDER FOR THEM TO MAKE AN INFORMED CHOICE ON WHETHER OR NOT THEY WILL EAT THEM. I WILL NOT BE CALLING THEM NAMES AND RESORTING TO SARCASM AND RIDICULE IF THEY DO NOT ACCEPT WHAT I HAVE FOR THEM.
WHILE I ENJOY AN EATING LIFESTYLE WHICH HAS LOWERED MY ANA FROM 1:10,240 TO 1:80, PUT MANY OF MY CONDITIONS INTO REMISSION, GOTTEN ME OFF OF A VERY POTENT PURE NARCOTIC, WHICH I NEEDED JUST TO BREATHE, AND ENABLED ME TO NOW HIKE AND BIKE AND ENJOY REASONABLY GOOD HEALTH – IT IS A JOURNEY – RATHER THAN LYING IN A BED AND DEPENDING ON LADIES FROM OUR CHURCH TO TAKE OF ME AND MY CHILDREN UNTIL MY HUSBAND CAME HOME, YOU MAY ENJOY YOUR WAY OF EATING AND I WISH YOU GOOD HEALTH AND A HAPPY LIFE.
HOWEVER, I WILL NOT BE READING ANY MORE OF YOUR CONDESCENDING INSULTS WRITTEN ON THIS BLOG. KELLY HAS MORE PATIENCE THAN I. KELLY HAS ALSO RECENTLY POSTED SOME OTHER WONDERFUL THINGS WHICH HAVE GOTTEN MY ATTENTION AND WHICH I WILL BE READING INSTEAD OF YOUR POSTS. YOU AND JOEL HAVE FUN TRASHING PEOPLE WHO DON’T DO WHAT YOU THINK THEY SHOULD BE DOING. I WILL BE HELPING OTHERS TO GAIN INFORMATION AND MAKE THEIR CHOICES.
foxeh says
I cant eat animal fats but i use this for most things that i dont use olive oil for
https://www.au-flora.com/Flora/Flora-Spreads-Product-Range/Flora-Original.aspx
Annitha says
I would like to add a little thing here about the Bible and food. As an Orthodox Christian, we fast from rich foods such as meat, meat products, dairy, and sometimes fish, wine and oil. We fast a good portion of the year and try not to obsess over food. The reason for fasting is difficult to sum up and if you are interested in knowing why, you can follow this link: https://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/liturgics/savich_meaning_of_fasting.htm
Many people who are Christians do not fast and often overlook this piece in the Bible (both Old and New). We must be moderate in our food consumption and try to be more self-disciplined in our physical and spiritual growth.
We live in a pluralistic and secularistic society where the Biblical idea of fasting is completely ignored and forgotten. “Gluttony has become a way of life for a fallen man and, it affects every area of live, leaving us wide open to all types of temptation. We all eat too much, and fasting is the only way to end this unnatural obsession with food. Fasting puts food into its proper perspective. We must eat in order to live, but we shouldn’t simply live to eat.” St. Isaac of Syria said: “The first commandment given to our nature in the beginning was the fasting from food and in this the head of our race (Adam) fell. Those who wish to attain the fear of God, therefore, should begin to build where the building was first fallen. They should begin with the commandment to fast.”
If we followed this from the get go, we might not be in the place we are in right now…over consumption of food, capitalism, greed, gluttony, animal abuse, etc.
I believe we need to be mindful of where our food comes from and to take care of buying any kind of food from businesses that are inhumane to animals and/or spray our veggies and fruits with pesticides.
That’s just my two cents here. I could say more but I feel this would take longer.
Denise says
Kelly, I apologize that my post provoked Joel to that response. He seemed to calm down in his posting and was actually having a discussion so that caught me by surprise. I did not see it coming because he recommended a book that makes numerous references to God. So I didn’t expect that incredible attack. May God have mercy on his soul. Thanks for all you do!
Joel Kerr says
Here are my parting words. You guys are all great at believing only what you want to believe. Kelly, people were using the bible to justify their eating habits, so I’m not sure how I crossed a line when I point out that they were using a book FULL of cruelty to justify modern day cruelty. I wasn’t the one who brought the bible into this. So to censor me for my comment means they can use parts of the bible that support their claim, but I can’t quote from parts of the bible that support mine. That seems like a double standard to me. Farewell you guys, I’m wasting my time…you guys can keep believing baloney if you want; it only hurts your own health, so be it.
PRae becquart says
Have you? Diversity is Life – Good luck with Your crusade!
KitchenKop says
NOW the line has been crossed. Joel, trash-talking about my God is NOT happening on my blog so that last comment is gone.
I wish you the best,
Kelly
Joel Kerr says
PRae “No Joel, i didn’t look at what you posted”
Thanks, that is all.
Joel Kerr says
Like I’ve said, I’m not here to tell anyone what to eat, despite what people are saying.
I do feel like if you’re going to continue eating meat and dairy, you should at least know what you’re supporting. Then, if you choose to still support it, so be it. At least you’re no longer kept in the dark by ad campaigns and misinformation. The meat industry is very good at this. Think about how many people you see everyday. Now think about how many animals you saw. Did you realize there are 30+ animals alive for every human? Where are they? They are hidden, because if these operations were out in the open, nobody would buy their products.
So in the name of knowing where your food is coming from, please take a minute to scroll through this slide presentation. I intentionally picked something that didn’t include a lof of graphic images and video (although thousands of those exist) in hope that more of you would take a minute to view this.
https://www.humanemyth.org/happycows.htm
Leo says
Ok a few things, then I’ll stop. I read through your studies. I’m always open to see what other people have to say. Each and every one of them — read that clearly — to the last one, each one tests conventionally “raised’,” hormone-laden, grain fed, industrially processed animals and/ or homogenized, pasteurized milk. That is a completely different food than meat from pasture-raised animals and/ or raw milk from grass-fed cows. It would be like me saying, well high fructose corn syrup is horrible, so all vegetables are bad. You’re trying to hold us accountable for “food” that we do not condone eating. Apples to oranges here, pal.
You like your myths? Here’s a good one: https://www.amazon.com/The-Vegetarian-Myth-Justice-Sustainability/dp/1604860804
Here’s another great book you should pick up, if you really want to be informed: https://www.amazon.com/Meat-Benign-Extravagance-Simon-Fairlie/dp/1603583246
Fact is, nothing I say here will convince you that you’re wrong. And that’s fine. But notice that the only “bullying” that has gone on here was some troll telling us we had “rocks for brains” or something like that. And notice also that you have been attacking Kelly and the rest of us for eating a product that we don’t condone or eat. Industrial animal products are not on the agenda or the table here. If you learn nothing else, learn that. Peace.
PRae Becquart says
Thank you Leo for having the patience to read thru the studies he is purporting. This is what is so frustrating…he’s not willing to look into what is being said here.
Joel Kerr says
Hey PRae, did you even for a second look at the link I posted? I bet not, because it’s hard to see the truth when you just ignore it. Your last message was hypocritical.
PRae Becquart says
Joel, are you having fun slamming people? I know what is right for me! Have you looked at the links others’ on here have posted for you to check out? What Brandis said above was to the point I was making, but thank you for your concern.
Commenter via Facebook says
@Adele – Becuz they want to have their say…even if they are wrong. And psychologically, it could be Narcissism.
Joel Kerr says
I’m probably going to “un-follow” these responses, although I’ll check in tomorrow. I just don’t want 63 emails in my inbox like I woke up with this morning! 🙂
Thanks to those of you who genuinely listened to my arguments even if you don’t agree with me.
Joel Kerr says
FYI – I noticed my last post is “awaiting moderation”… I’d be disappointed if it doesn’t go through because folks have been asking for scientific studies supporting things I have said, and my post represents my response to those folks.
KitchenKop says
I’ve got a few things going on here and hadn’t had time to be on email yet today. I just approved the ones I see got snagged in moderation, and I’ll always approve those unless they get nasty. I’m way behind on the comments since I caught up last night, so hopefully there are none like that that I haven’t seen yet…
Time to go trick or treating now so catching up will have to wait!
Kelly
Joyce says
Please everyone, STOP IT! There is no reasoning with those with opposite ideas. It’s like trying to convince a Republican to be a Democrat (or a Christian to be a Muslim) or vice versa. Our world needs more harmony, not this kind of dissension. Let’s look at what we all can agree on. Perhaps that healthy eating is a personal choice and no one has all the answers? Kelly — some of this is just adding to the disharmony in the world. Here in the states we have enough with the election coming up!!! Couldn’t you cut off comments? The post was so great on types of fats that you feel are healthy. The message got lost in the discourse that followed.
Denise says
Discourse is healthy. Don’t read it if it bothers you. Unfollow the post. But don’t tell everyone to stop it. Discussion is beneficial. Kelly actually invited everyone from Facebook in on the discussion. I’ve learned some things.
Lori says
Wow! What terrible information! You should be omitting oils and processed crap not deciding which one is more healthy! Try following someone like The Chef And The Dietician for more realistic advice.
Tim Delph says
And all of you who thinks their egg, meat, dairy diets are healthier than vegan diets has rocks for brains! Get out of the 1950-era and read scientific research!
Tim Delph says
Plain crap! This website is a justification to overeat carbs and junk! Only dummies would believe this crap!! Geesh!
Denise says
What? I have never seen anything on this site that promotes overeating carbs and junk food. Just the opposite.
Erin says
There are many arguments one could try to make, whether or not I agree with them. I cannot even begin to understand this one, however. This website is dedicated to real food and eliminating the junk. If we want to talk junk, lets talk 90% of what is in supermarkets. I in no way see how this site promotes overeating “carbs and junk”. If you think that saturated fats and/or animal products are not healthy, fine. I don’t agree, but at least I can see why one might think that. But please direct me to where this website promotes overeating carbs and junk.
Commenter via Facebook says
So here is my question – file it under psychology – why would they bother causing such a ruckus on a site where they disagree with the basic premise?
Joel Kerr says
I wanted to add a new post here at the bottom of the page. I have addressed many of these questions that people keep telling me I havne’t answered, but I’ve done it in direct responses throughout this thread, so instead of me repeating myself about things like “the world would be overrun with animals if we stopped eating it” (absurd) just look back and you’ll find my answers.
Denise says
You didn’t respond to Kelly’s question: “So just to be clear… You believe that the foods we’ve been eating for *thousands* of years are responsible for the health conditions that have come about in just the past few decades?”
And you didn’t respond to mine: If animals eat each other and tear each other apart every day, why should we not eat them? What’s the difference? Are you going to demand that animals be kinder to each other?
And I am sorry you have been called names on here. There is no excuse for calling someone an idiot. You are obviously a concerned person who is trying his best to do what he believes is right. But you are relying on studies that have been manipulated to show a predetermined conclusion. It is done all the time.
I feel great and my tests are good. I put my lupus and R.A. into remission by eating the way Kelly describes. You are free to eat as you desire.
What I object to is being told I am a bad person because I eat animals. I am not. God gave them to us to eat and they make me healthy. If they can eat each other, I can eat them.
I wish you the best.
Joel Kerr says
Sorry Denise, I’m not ducking any questions, so here goes.
“So just to be clear… You believe that the foods we’ve been eating for *thousands* of years are responsible for the health conditions that have come about in just the past few decades?”
– I said in an earlier post that a small amount of meat isn’t going to hurt you. For most of that time, meat has been very rare, and even until the last century, people only ate meat from time to time. Now we have meat at the center of every meal. The life expectancy brought about by the industrial revolution has people living longer, and heart disease and cancer that doesn’t usually show up until your 50s+ wasn’t an issue before. Now it is, and there is a direct link to eating meat. Again, a small amount isn’t going to hurt you. I’ve never said it would. And I’ve also never said that eating less processed foods isn’t better, I agree with you guys there.
“If animals eat each other and tear each other apart every day, why should we not eat them?”
-I wish we could prevent all suffering, but that isn’t realistic in the animal kingdom. It’s unfortunate. But just because lions are killing wildebeests in Africa doesn’t mean we also have to cause even MORE suffering by killing animals by the BILLIONS each year, especially when we don’t have to. Do you see where I’m coming from? Our goal should be the least possible suffering, and there is a LOT of suffering happening because of our meat consumption that is needless.
As someone who believes in God, you should check out the book called Dominion, by Matthew Scully, who believes we are really screwing up God’s intention for how we use animals. It’s not propaganda, I think you’ll find it interesting.
And of course, I disagree that I just look at studies that support my claims… as a big supporter of science, it was science in the first place that convinced me to change my diet. I had the same concerns as you… I didn’t want to harm animals but I saw it as a necessary evil, until I learned otherwise. A lot of studies show that diets including fish are just about as optimal as vegetarian diets, and I’ll freely admit that. What studies don’t show, in almost any case, is that meat eating is superior to a vegetarian or fish based diet (of course, I see an ethical problem with eating fish as well, but I am just acknowledging the science behind the health aspect).
I’m not saying anyone is a bad person. We are all just trying to do what’s best for ourselves and wade through a lot of confusing information.
As a vegan, I have been attacked, ridiculed, called names, told how wrong I am, made fun of, etc… these were direct attacks. I have found that when a vegan so much as even mentions anything about vegan health or animal suffering, we get bombarded by people immediately telling us “you’re so high and mighty”, etc. It seems that by the very act of talking about veganism is interpreted as an assault on someone else, and that is NOT what my intention is. It’s very tough being an outsider, a minority, and being ganged up on at every turn for making what we consider a well thought-out moral choice to be kind to others. The fact that we want to share this message of kindness and compassion is very much misinterpreted sometimes, and if I ever come across as insulting, it’s just because this is such a passionate thing. To me, this is very important. What we do to these loving, gentle animals is abominable, and I just wish people would be more willing to open their eyes sometime to give these animals one small ounce of dignity. It’s such a sad and miserable existence for them, and it isn’t easy knowing that we are causing this directly by our actions of consuming products that come from their bodies. This is truly from my heart and my hope is that folks here at least see where I’m coming from and can stop feeling like I’m attacking because that isn’t my intention. I have better things I could be doing than responding to all these posts, but this is an important issue for me. I didn’t set out to start this…I saw this blog being posted around on facebook and I thought the information it was conveying was misleading and I wanted to offer an alternative viewpoint.
Tim Delph says
Very well put Joel!!
Leo says
You say “studies show” and “studies don’t show,” but you don’t produce any of those straw-man studies. Here’s a great link to a website listing studies showing you’re wrong.
https://www.bulletproofexec.com/the-complete-illustrated-one-page-bulletproof-diet/
Joel Kerr says
That website looks very self promoting to me.
Everyone from Cornell, to Harvard to the World Health Organization, etc all say vegan diets are either as healthy or superior (again, sure, a small amount won’t hurt you, but causes a LOT of suffering).
The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics says that a well-planned vegan (and vegetarian) diet is “healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.”
According to one study, (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1552366) “vegetarian and vegan diets are effective in treating and preventing several chronic diseases.” The adaptation of a low-fat vegan diet can substantially mitigate the impacts of type 2 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, and Parkinson’s disease. Veganism reduces the risk of colon cancer. Vegans have a better “antioxidant status” than non-vegans. (https://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/62/6/1221.short) Veganism is more effective at combating obesity than other prescribed diets, such as that promoted by the National Cholesterol Education Program. Veganism has been shown to lower risk factors associated with cardiac disease. (https://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/yjada/article/S0002-8223(07)02073-1/abstract)
As Dr. Michael Greger, director of public health for the Humane Society of the United States, explains, “A plant-based diet is like a one-stop shop against chronic diseases.”
What the science says abuot vegan nutrition, by a friend of mine, Jack Norris: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKa0kfN0LOY
The American Dietetic Association, American Cancer Society and the American Heart Association would seem to be good sources to listen to when it comes to this debate. They look at hundreds or thousands of peer reviewed studies to come up with their recommendations. ALL of them recommend diets almost entirely of plant based sources, and very little, if any, meat and dairy. Unless you think these organizations are lying (that would be a massive conspiracy, wouldn’t it?) then it’s at least worth hearing them out.
Vegan diets are better for the environment says Science Daily: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060414012755.htm
Here is another one to check out, just for more information: https://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/161/7/672.short
Did you guys also know that higher dairy intake is lined to deteriorating bone health? Yale and Harvard researchers have proven this and you can find plenty if you google it.
And I could go on…and on…and on…
Denise says
The many healthy people eating meat, eggs, butter and etc. refute every one of these.
The reason a vegan diet can help all these things is that junk food is cut out. Of course you will see improvements. But in the long term, the real food diets are the ones that sustain health.
Vegan is dangerous to long term health.
Joel Kerr says
Saying that a vegan diet is dangerous shows a lack of knowledge about it (no disrespect, lots of people haven’t ever really considered a vegan diet or it’s benefits).
You can get every single vitamin, mineral, essential amino acid, etc (not to mention phytochemicals, super loads of antioxidants, etc) from a vegan diet and don’t need meat for any of it… with the one exception of B12, and most vegans I know supplement (plus many foods from pasta to cereal to soy milk are fortified).
Saying it’s dangerous is the exact opposite of reality.
Joel Kerr says
Truth is you WILL NOT have a clogged artery if you’re on a vegan diet. No heart attacks, no open heart surgeries, no stents…nothing. There is a lot of evidence that it helps with many other cancers and diseases as well. Heart disease is the leading cause of death in this country. So either swtiching to a vegan diet would help us live longer, or you’re saying that something else about a vegan diet will kill you instead of the heart attack, and I’d like to know what that is.
Mike F says
The most likely culprits of heart attacks are refined sugar, high-fructose corn syrup, refined soybean oil, corn oil, and cotton seed oil. All of those are vegan foods.
The question you have to ask yourself is… why are you here?
You’ve obviously convinced no one. You’ve failed to grasp that many people here have improved their health by getting off of the SAD diet and switched to a Whole Real Food diet that includes meat and animal products.
If you want to better understand our perspective then I’d suggest you read the works of any of the many Real Food researchers and doctors such as Chris Masterjohn, Chris Kresser, Dr. Cate Shannahan, Dr. Paul Jaminet, Robb Wolf, Dr. Mary Enig, Sally Fallon, etc.
Then come back and tell us why they are wrong. You’ll engage our interest at that point.
Denise says
Absolutely untrue. Many vegans and vegetarians have heart disease and they do have heart attacks. To say otherwise is misleading or ignorant.
In terms of health risks from eating a vegetarian or vegan diet, most people think of vitamin B12 deficiency, as vitamin B12 is present in natural form only in animal sources of food.
But while this is a real risk — studies show insufficient amounts of vitamin B12 can elevate your homocysteine levels, potentially increasing your risk for heart disease and stroke — it is not the only one.
New research suggests that excluding all animal foods from your diet leads to a low dietary intake of protein and sulfur amino acids, which increases vegetarians’ risk of heart disease.
B12 in plant sources is a B12 analog and can actually deplete B12 rather than supplying it. The heart needs B12.
Carol Shilor says
Errrrm. B12 doesn’t ‘naturally’ come from animal sources. It’s created by bacteria. The reason that it’s only found in animal products now is because we so thoroughly cover our fruits and veggies in herbicides/pesticides and wash them. If we still ate things fresh from the ground; all covered in dirt and manure, there’d be plenty of B12 in a vegan diet.
And it’s IMPOSSIBLE to have a protein deficient diet, if you’re consuming enough calories. Literally, impossible. In fact, most americans consume far TOO MUCH protein; which increases stress on the kidneys and can lead to osteoporosis.
As Joel has said MANY times now, he’s not claiming that the occasional intake of an animal product will kill you. But to claim that it’s healthier than the alternatives is nonsense.
And vegans are vegans for many reasons. One is for our own health; to which we constantly post studies negating each other.
Then there’s the environment; to which there is no argument. Animal agriculture is one of the most environmentally taxing endeavors on our planet. Rainforest destruction, water consumption, water pollution, CO2/methane emissions.. and so on.
Lastly, there’s the welfare of the animal. Again, there can be no argument. Unnatural death is always painful. I don’t care if you think the animal enjoyed green grass and sunlight (and if you’re buying your “free range” or “organic” products at the grocery store, I’ll bet you money the animals were in near or total factory farm conditions), they still lived only about 1/4 of their natural life span, they were artificially impregnated, they were separated from their young, and they did die a brutal death.
Somewhere in this thread, someone said, “They’re going to die anyway. To not eat them would be such a waste.”
Well, I’m pretty sure your grandmother would taste good if you roasted her in an oven (and there are plenty of wild animals that would loooove to eat her anyhow.. You know, that whole natural circle of life thing you guys love so much).. but yet, we give her the dignity of natural death and a burial.
PRae Becquart says
In regards to what Carol said about B12…
So you’re saying B12 comes from dirt? Does not dirt include animal nutrients, like blood & bone.
And as far as grandma goes, now you are just being rude…
Joel Kerr says
Thank you Carol, for the remedial less on B12. Denise was referring to cynocobalamin, which is an analogue, but you can now get straight methycobalamin as well.
Studies (yeah, those pesky things that people like Denise don’t like) have continually shown that B12 works just fine in sublingual or droplet forms and converts in the body quite nicely.
I see the old “protein” argument that has been debunked 1000x over. Interesting that so many high endurance and strength athletes are ditching animal products and remaining at the top of their sport.
karen ferguson says
Denise…it’s none of my business who you apologize to…I honor your decision. Yet do be careful: God does not intend for any of his children to be doormaps. Sometimes it gives those hostile personalities a crack to slither through feeling self-rightous because they think [they get confused from lack good fats] that what they have to say is more important that what you have to say.
They lean either a bit on the pathology side [seldom any recovery from self-centered thinking] or what I call “spiritual rightousness.”
It sounds to me that what you are doing is working. I am soo appreciative to hear what your program has solved…i.e. lupus snf RA.
As a child of God, you will never be a bad person. You are the Beloved of your Higher Power. And, I love you too.
Thank you soo much for sharing your experiences and story!!!!
Hugs from Jamaica,
Karen
Commenter via Facebook says
Folks, give up. If people like Joel and Chris want to be so feeble-minded as to believe every that Big Ag, Big Med and Big Pharma tell them, let them. Not worth the effort. Actually, Chris as a conventionally-trained physician is part of the problem. Let them follow their vegan diets. Let them trash their thyroid and endocrine system. Let them develop their man boobs from their soy consumption. Let them increase their chances of dying from a horrendous cancer from all the GMO foods they are eating. Etc., etc., etc. Time will tell. I learned long ago to save my strength and not use it on fools.
Leo says
You’re so right, Kelly. I started to get so worked up — and was preparing a point-by-point rebuttal — but it’s pointless (forgive the bad pun). I follow what feels right to me. Let others do as they will. Love your website and all your fantastic information! Keep up the great work.
Tina says
Folks, give up. If people like Joel and Chris want to be so feeble-minded as to believe every that Big Ag, Big Med and Big Pharma tell them, let them. Not worth the effort. Actually, Chris as a conventionally-trained physician is part of the problem. Let them follow their vegan diets. Let them trash their thyroid and endocrine system. Let them develop their man boobs from their soy consumption. Let them increase their chances of dying from a horrendous cancer from all the GMO foods they are eating. Etc., etc., etc. Time will tell. I learned long ago to save my strength and not use it on fools.
Joel Kerr says
Do you really think we would have a shorter life span if people converted to a plant-based diet? And playing the man-boob card? You do realize all those myths have been debunked, right?
I never said I liked GMO foods, and I try to avoid them when possible. I don’t have the optimum diet I could, and I’m always striving to do better just as we all are. I’m a big supporter of the laws to start labelling GMOs.
It’s interesting for someone on a message board to say “don’t believe those doctors, they’re part of the problem” Yikes!
Denise says
They are – only because they are ignorant too. The average doctor receives maybe a few hours training on nutrition. And we should TRUST them?
S says
One can eat a vegan diet and not consume soy nor GMOs.
Denise says
Of course they can. In the long run, it is still unhealthy because they deplete their stores and then ill health sets in.
Joel Kerr says
Denise, how many ill 70 year old vegans do you know?
We can argue about ethics and whether meat can be harmful, but I’ve rarely heard anyone argue that a vegan diet can’t be healthy.
Denise says
Now you have:
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/10/29/why-are-vegetarians-at-risk-of-heart-disease.aspx
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/04/11/how-moms-vegan-diet-unintentionally-killed-her-innocent-child.aspx
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/04/05/vitamin-b12-deficiency-may-lead-to-brain-shrinkage.aspx
Each of these articles is well documented.
And your comment that the “myth” of the dangers of soy has been “debunked” really shows a lack of knowledge. Soy was originally cultivated to be plowed under to add nitrogen to the soil. It was never intended for food. It is goitragenic among other things. I could go on. But in no way have the dangers of soy been “debunked”. And 94% of soy today is GMO.
Joel Kerr says
Dr. Mercola’s stuff is all over the web, and he is a fraud. You should check where your “information” is coming from.
https://www.quackwatch.com/11Ind/mercola.html
https://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/02/01/joe-mercola-proof-positive-that-quackery/
Every single one of those soy “warnings” HAVE in fact been either proven as myths or studies have been inconclusive. That stuff is complete hogwash and fearmongering propetuated by the meat and dairy industry. BTW, I’m not a fan of GMO stuff, and I think Monsanto is pure evil… so please don’t confuse things I’m saying by bringing up things (like the GMO) debate that I haven’t enen brought up.
In fact, the largest study ever done looking at this (from 1998 from Imperial Cancer Research Fund in Oxford, England, who enrolled over 76,000 meat eaters and 27,000 vegetarians)…the rate of heart dieseas was dramatically lower for vegetarians.
Regardless of how much bull is posted here, there is literally a MOUNTAIN of evidence, getting bigger by the day, that a vegan diet is superior in almost every way. I have never claimed that you don’t have to look out for a few potential health risks like B-12 deficiency… you do have to put some thought into your diet, but if done right, there is no question that a vegan diet is healthy, and more healthy than any typical diet almost anywhere in the world.
Denise says
Sure, Joel. He’s a fraud. With an incredibly successful clinic in Chicago and accomplishments like people recovering from scleroderma and cancer, which doctors say is incurable, and being the #1 health site in the WORLD I would definitely call him a fraud. A very intelligent conclusion.
In reference to your previous post: Joel, if I go through my life living as God has commanded and learning from His word, then I die and find out I was wrong – I have lost NOTHING. If you go through your life, calling God those horrible names you posted on here and living as if there is no eternity, and you die to find you were wrong – you have lost EVERYTHING!
karen ferguson says
Yay!!! Tina, no wiser words were spoken so graciously.
What Kerr cause ‘passion” is actually the definition of ‘bullying’ couched in the wrong way. He slides his comments in seemingly a charming manner, backed by his “testimony” in biblical wisdom.
However his actions belie his true intent: my way or the highway. sigh….
He’s good at 2 things: calling names and pointing the finger. He’s way, way too old to change I suspect.
Alienation never works when attempting to persuade one of another way. I’m soo proud to be a part of ‘Kitchen’ Kop’s” community: we’ve handled ourselves with dignity, keeping our side of the street clean. I’m so glad I’m no longer brain-dead, unhappy without a complete, rational thought. Sally Fallon saved my mental health and Kelly has added to my knowledge.
I’ve never been happier!!! Thanks Tina!!! And, whoever said “go eat some grass-fed butter” ….right on!!! hahaha…Crack me, you all, I love to laugh.
Hug..
Karen in Jamaica-Mon.
Christine Decarolis says
There are many paths up the mountain, all leading to the same place. Everyone is on their own path. The only foolish one is the one running around and around the mountain telling everyone else they are on the wrong path. ~Hindu Proverb
We are omnivores. We were designed, by God or by Nature, to eat a wide variety of food–plant, animal and everything in-between. However we deviate from that is our CHOICE. So Vegan, stick to you path and stop running around the mountain, you’re only coming off as the Fool.
karen ferguson says
I like this Christine….well done!!! I second that ‘comin’ off as the Fool.’
Commenter via Facebook says
You sure caused a great debate! Love it.
Commenter via Facebook says
So people go around trolling blogs that they don’t agree with so they can pick a fight? Who has time for that? I can barely keep up with the blogs that interest me. Having differing opinions, discussing them and asking questions like grown ups is one thing, but I don’t get the attack stuff.
Commenter via Facebook says
If I wanted my viewing to look like an elderly version of America’s Top Model I’d just chug formaldehyde daily… I intend to be a wrinkled, saggy, white haired old harridan thank you very much. =P
Karen Ferguson says
You’re crackin’ me up, Kelly!!! Wow, you sure know how to “step in it” eh?? I love that about you and aspire to do the same. Although you do it better, so I have to keep aspirerin’!! hahaha….
Alas, there’s no response for someone who is intent on keeping their minds closed. I also add that they’ve been brainwashed. It’s a very true state of mind and our food industry has done a good job. Hence, ‘hang it up’ and I appreciate the invitation, but I don’t try either. Remember I was “there” once, all brain-tired, miserable and exhausted from trying vegetarianism, veganism and raw foodism. I understand their argument and I eat ‘raw’ often enough, yet, its so personal on so many levels.
Until one gets sick and tired of being sick and tired…well, it’s hard to shift.
My thoughts and good wishes go out to them. I say if what one is doing is not working, start your own research!! That’s what you say too. ‘ Nuff said.
Love you tons…I’m in Jamaica-mon, working. 🙂
Hope to go off and see Ivey Harris, author of “Healing Herbs in Jamaica” this week. Haven’t read it yet, but she has an outstanding reputation here.
Lots of hugs.
Karen…Port Antonio, Jamaica
Commenter via Facebook says
Tiffany makes a great point. We are all different and some of us do much better with certain diets- whether it be more plant based, more red meat, fish, poultry or grain. Each of our bodies has different genetics and blood types that desire a certain diet. We all know based on how our bodies feel when we eat certain things- or when we miss certain things ( like red meat for example). My body feels best with less grains, more proteins from poultry and fish, fruits and veggies, but not too much red meat. I love the taste of dairy, but I think my body does better without it. Everyone is different though, and who is anyone to judge… I am certainly not and neither is a vegan or vegetarian.
Commenter via Facebook says
I had a brief journey into veganism, but found most vegans very passionate about their cause that I couldn’t even enjoy a veggie burger. I honestly don’t believe there Is a perfect diet. It all depends on the person. I need red meat in my system as i get really sick if i don’t. I was a very healthy vegan, but always sick. When I started consuming red meat again, all sicknesses left…within days. My mom on the other hand runs better on an almost all vegetarian diet. I hate that there is so much food ‘war’ going on, it makes decision making really hard!
Joyce says
I’m not adding to the argument. I just want to say I agree and use all your choices for baking, cooking etc. One thing though — I add MCT oil (from coconut oil) for use in salad dressings and to make mayonnaise or nut butters. I use it about 50/50 with coconut oil since it does not harden so the items are always creamy. I can’t find MCT oil (medium chain triglycerides is the name of the MCT acronym) in stores yet; I buy mine on line at Vitacost. It’s tasteless and good for you like coconut oil.
Commenter via Facebook says
I eat meat veggies dairy do what kelley says and I am not so brainfogged as I used to be neither is my husband
Commenter via Facebook says
Wendi Wilkins, I don’t know what Bible you are reading, but from Genesis on people were eating meat. After the fall. And just because they weren’t eating meat before, that does not mean they weren’t eating animal products – which vegans don’t.
PRae Becquart says
Just wanted to add this…a Nutritionist who promotes Real food said…Canola oil is used for macines…it is Not good for you. I’ve been eating raw milk, butter, yogurt etc. fermented vegees, raw vegees & fruits & pasture raised meats for about 3 yrs now! My desire for meat proteins has gone down & I crave vegees w/butter & fruits daily more than ever. my overall health & healthy glow has improved & I never go to Western doctors & never listen to ‘fear-mongering’! (oh & also raising vegees & fruits does not eliminate killing, where would the soil be without animal nutrients? Oh I guess synthetic nutrients would be the answer…)
Commenter via Facebook says
Great segment on The Diane Rehm Show today on Assessing The Health Benefits of Omega 3’s. experts from NIH, Johns Hopkins & Georgetown, with references to many studies which corroborate many of Kelly’s point.
Commenter via Facebook says
I’m all for the Bible being a source of spiritual guidance, but I find that in general, using it in scientific arguments usually does not aide in making a point and unfortunately usually has the opposite effect. 🙁 Sad, maybe, but true…
Commenter via Facebook says
Corie, I’m not pro-vegan, but to rebut your comment, the Bible records traditional vegan societies long before the 60s. It tells us that people ate only plant based foods until after the flood. But, I also believe that along with other changes at that time, God changed our bodies to NEED animal fat and protein. 🙂 Just sayin’.
Commenter via Facebook says
It’s so sad to see how veganism has become more of a religion now! They get all defensive and sensitive as soon as somebody starts to talk about the other side.
And the cherry on top comes when they say that “Veganism is all about being compassionate and ethical” and they are trying to protect animals from getting hurt, without even realizing how their reactions make omnivores feel. I know many who start their day with a hateful status update for all meat eaters.
Joel says
The reason we are so passionate about it is this… very similar to slavery, the holocaust, the subjugation of women…animal pruduction is a form of a powerful group exploiting the powerless for their own selfish desires. Just as in those other cases, a quiet minority spoke out and it eventually became a larger movement, freeing the enslaved, giving a voice to the powerless.
One difference is that animals can’t speak for themselves, we have to do it for them. It’s not a religion, and it’s not some joke or something to be ridiculed. There is a reason why we feel so strongly, and it does make me angry to see humans treating animals in this way without a care in the world how others are treated, as long as their (quite large) stomachs get fed.
Brandis says
I was going to stay out of this… but I can’t. YOU are spreading misinformation. And I can’t stand it.
You could actually feed the world with meat while feeding said meat what it is meant to eat and treating it humanely, AND it would be better for the planet. If you were to take all of the crop land currently used to raise feed for cattle (it’s something like 30% of current crop land, but that may be off a little) and converted it back to grassland, as most of it was previously, it would feed the exact number of confinement cows now kept in feed lots. Grassland is MEANT to be grazed- it has been proven that responsibly grazed grassland is healthier than undisturbed grassland, and converts more carbon dioxide into oxygen. In fact, a square mile of properly managed grassland converts more carbon dioxide into oxygen than a square mile of rain forest. Crop production, on the other hand, depletes the soil, and annual row crops don’t convert nearly as much CO2 to oxygen. It may take 7 lbs of grain to create one pound of grain fed beef, but we can’t eat grass, while they can convert it to high quality protein.
And to say that killing an animal is immoral is, in my humble opinion, immature. It’s like a child becoming upset when they see an animal die. As someone else so eloquently put, death isn’t pretty but it’s a part of life. While I will agree with you that the state of today’s meat industry is awful and immoral, the simple act of killing an animal for food is not, simply based on the fact that we, too, are animals, and while you can throw all the health studies at me that you want, we are meant to eat meat. We aren’t ruminants. We don’t have a significant cecum (like chickens and elephants, even though the former isn’t technically a vegetarian either). And there are significant nutrients that we need that are either only available in animal products or are easiest to absorb from animal products. Not to mention the fact that civilizations for thousands of years ate meat, often far more than we do today, yet the chronic diseases we are fighting today are completely new. Yes, they had lesser life expectancies, but that is almost exclusively attributed to lack of sanitation, a more dangerous way of life, and less access to medical help for communicable diseases, NOT to heart disease, cancer, diabetes, asthma, etc. Our bodies are designed to eat meat, so we should. Not to mention (because I’m sure you’ve heard this argument before and discredited it as something we tell ourselves to “feel better,” but it is no less true) the fact that prey species- chickens, deer, cattle, etc- are healthier when we eat them, because we cull the weak and prevent populations from becoming crowded. What exactly do you propose we do with all the cattle if we stop eating them- set them free? Where? Because if we all stopped eating meat we would have to farm more land, meaning less habitat for the existing animals. It’s immature. And you’re trolling. So leave. We all obviously can have intelligent conversations without changing your mind at all (love, btw, how you didn’t respond at all to the 10 links to GMO studies). Why are you even on this site?
S says
“And to say that killing an animal is immoral is, in my humble opinion, immature.”
It’s compassion.
Joel Kerr says
Brandis, our ancestors ate meat, what’s your point? I’m saying that we don’t need it. I can go to the grocery store now and buy foods that were naturally derived from different places all over this planet and can quite easily get all the vitamins, nutrients, protein and essential amino acids that my body requires just with plants. So, since I can do that, why then would an animal still need to die for me to eat? We will never eliminate suffering altogether, but shouldn’t we do the best we can to limit the amount of suffering we cause? Many on this board have acknowledged that it’s important to treat animals well, and that is exactly what I am advocating. Where we disagree is how to best do that. You think that raising them on a traditional farm and letting them graze grass is the best way; I think we can go a step further and decide to not eat them, because all of them end up in the same place, where they are all treated terribly.
This whole argument about culling the herd…? The herd of chickens, cows and pigs out there in the wild? Ummmm, I’ll leave that one alone.
And the question of what to do with the animals… this shows that you haven’t given this topic much thought (don’t worry, many people haven’t). Meat eating isn’t going to end overnight. As the demand slows, so will the supply, and fewer animals will be raised. Eventually when we do get to a point that we aren’t eating them, I would advocate for a sanctuary setting for the few that are left, or a form of euthanasia (many of the animals can’t live normal lives because they have been genetically modified to grow fast). The point is that this would only affect a few million animals, when right now we are killing around 4 million animals per hour… beings with a will to live, just so we can make a choice on a menu. It just doesn’t seem right. There is a better alternative.
PRae Becquart says
Joel…so now you’re suggesting we eliminate the animals we eat…or we could just turn them out to the wild & let the ‘true’ predators kill them. And once they are eaten, then we will be dinner!
Please get real!
Joel Kerr says
PRae Becquart, what you’re suggesting is a complete fallacy. I can tell you haven’t given this issue much thought before, which is fine and I’m glad we’re having this discussion.
We literlly kill around 4 million animals per hour. Every animal in our food chain will be dead within 6 months, and a whole new batch of animals will be born and fattening for the slaughterhouse. They really are slaughtered in terrible ways, many of them still living when their throats are cut and hung upside down. Many are abused at the hands of the slaughterhouse workers. Why would I want this cycle to continue day after day after day? First of all, as the demand goes down, so will the supply, so the thought that there will be a billion animals out there that need homes is false. If meat consumption did end overnight, then yes, I would likely support some kind of euthanasia for the remaining animals that there are no homes for. It’s unfortunate, but that would end this cycle of cruelty. It would be sad for millions of animals to die, but they would have died anyway, and this would prevent a HUNDRED BILLION more from suffering the same fate. I’m sure people out there have better ideas than me. But the thought that we would just turn a bunch of cows loose in the wildnerness is quite absurd.
Brandis says
But you’re ignoring the fact that the actual planet would be worse off without these animals, and that annual row cropping, especially to the extent we would need to feed billions of vegetarians, would rape the planet. You are constantly talking about the horrors animals face- in the CAFO mass slaughterhouse system, you are totally right. But it is far more responsible and beneficial to responsibly raise animals the way they were meant to live and then humanely kill them.
And it is absurd to say that every animal in our food chain will be dead in 6 months. It takes 2-3 years to finish out a beef cow, whether CAFO or grassfed.
And I LOVE that you endorse mass euthenasia, but not a natural cycle of life where one animal (us) eats others. That would be such a waste and so dishonor and disrespect the lives of the animals. It’s obvious that YOU haven’t given this much thought. I grew up on a beef farm. I currently raise chickens for eggs and meat. Is it better that my father’s humanely raised, grassfed beef never existed… that my free range spoiled chickens never existed, simply because one day either in the near or far future they are going to die, and just happen to die to feed me and my family? Oh wait, everything is going to die. What a waste when animals die for nothing.
Joel Kerr says
Hopefully most people can easily see through this backwards logic. It’s really quite unbelievable. So ending the horriffic process of bringing animals into this wold to live only a fraction of their natural lives so that you can be responsible for their brutal murder is somehow more ethical then ending the practice altogether?
It’s like a slave owner saying that he wants to breed more slaves because ‘hey, at least they get a chance at a life that they wouldn’t have otherwise have, and I’ll treat them humanely”.
Get outta here, dude.
BTW, I grew up on a farm as well, so no need to describe to me what happens…. my grandpa was very good to his cows, but I never asked where the babies went (veal)…I never asked how long they would live if they weren’t slaughtered at the end (20 years)…I never asked what happend to the baby male chickens (killed at infants)…I never asked why the male pigs were missing their testicles (cut off without anesthesia as they screamed for hours afterward)…I never asked whether those pigs could feel, could think, had a will to live, had an individual personality (yes, yes, yes, yes).
Oh, but since “everything will die anyway” their lives don’t matter. I hope you’re never responsible for a mentally ill child who can’t express his/her wants or needs, because I’m sure they would get the same treatment. Apparently just because an animal can’t have a conversation with you, you get to do as you please to them without any remorse. GIVE ME A FLIPPIN BREAK!
Denise says
Joel, what you are saying just doesn’t fly. Animals are not people and people are not animals. I read parts of Dominion as you suggested. I have looked at everything you have posted because one cannot respond cogently if one does not look at information.
The Bible is my rule of faith and practice. While what we have is not ideal, since the Fall, it is what we have. In His word, God gave us rules for food. They obviously include animals. We see meat being eaten all through the Bible.
God required sacrifice of animals in the sacrificial system He instituted. Part of the living of the priests who oversaw the sacrifices was a portion of the meat from the sacrifices. God outlined how it was to be done. The animals were killed.
In Genesis, Abel was approved for his obedient sacrifice of an animal and Cain was disapproved for his disobedient sacrifice of his garden produce.
While you originally objected for health reasons, now you seem to be camped on the cruelty to animals spot. Here is my response to both:
You cannot expect those of us who eat this way and have benefited tremendously from the improvement in health and wellbeing to change the way we eat because you believe it is unhealthy. It is not. It is how people have eaten since the Fall. It was the diet of the men who lived hundreds of years. YOUR diet requires manipulation of several foods to make things acceptable to your way of eating. OUR diet requires eating what God has abundantly provided for us.
As for the morality, how can I call what God has blessed and approved “immoral”? That is my final word on it. God would not approve of and regulate that which is immoral or would result in poor health for His obedient people.
You won’t find a person on here who approves of CAPO. You will find people who seek to be responsible, eat locally, and desire good health for themselves and their families.
And I am sorry, but I will be putting what God says in His word before your very emotional and quite understandable reaction to animals being eaten. You are free to live as you will, not to condemn us for not living the way you do. God trumps man every time.
Denise says
I had thought, Joel that you were actually someone who could rationally discuss things. I was wrong. With that last comment I bow out of this discussion. You are in a dangerous place. “He that believeth not is condemned already .” I am choosing to no longer “cast my pearls before swine”. I do not envy you your eventual fate.
Joel Kerr says
Everything I posted was true. Let me know if you would like me to quote scripture because I am quite versed in theology.
Thanks for your concern for my eternal soul, but I’m in quite a good “place”… I have two small children, a great wife and partner, a very awesome group of friends in my life, and I stay very busy, including doing charity work for both humans and animals (Fortunately, I’m not blinded by dogma and know that when people are suffering, everything won’t be made right by a diety after death, that this life is the only one they have and is extremely prescious). I’m not sure what I’m missing exactly?
IC says
What are you TALKING about?! Most vicitims of the Holocaust PERISHED, their voices snuffed out forever! All because of a short vegetarian.
Shame on you.
Commenter via Facebook says
As for traditional, I thought some Buddhist monks have eaten vegetarian diets but I don’t know if there are no animal sources. Arguing with this troll won’t get anywhere. It’s fun at first. If you get too many trolls, you might need another strategy.
IC says
Some Buddhist monks also walk very slowly, always looking down, so as not to kill the smallest insect.
It is impossible to live without causing the death of something else. Food by definition is living. I don’t get why plant life is not respected as such among some hard core vegans – I am thankful for ALL my living food.
Elicia says
More resources:
Put Your Heart In Your Mouth- Natasha Campbell-McBride ( I forgot to include in previous post. References 400 some studies, all of which are in the handy list in the back, as well as 15 recommended books to read.
Know Your Fats, by Mary Enig, PhD.
Nourishing Traditions by Sally Fallon
Eat Fat, Lose Fat by Sally Fallon and Mary Enig
The Cholesterol Myths by U Ravnskov
Malignant Medical Myths by JM Kauffman
Gut and Psychology Syndrome by Natasha Campbell Mc Bride
Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A Price.
This is not junk science. It is a WIDE world of information out there, but unfortunately it is not the stuff the USDA, FDA or the mass media (read: large companies and industry) will promote. It is also not what medical doctors will tell you. That is not their forte of education and training.
Chris Brown says
there are a wide variety of docs out there, and I’d say many think for themselves quite well. my friend Franz Messerli was just published in New England Journal a couple of weeks ago with a fun study demonstrating the extremely high correlation between chocolate intake and Nobel Prizes per capita by nation. He’s a cardiologist, and a very fit, healthly, and energetic older man.
Elicia says
Just because someone chooses to eat high quality animal fats, it does not mean they don’t also eat a lot of plant based foods. The amount of fats like butter, lard, and tallow that are recommended to eat daily are only a few tablespoons, and OBVIOUSLY more nutrients are needed than they contain, which is why most people eating a more traditional diet ALSO understand the necessity of including 5-7 servings of LOTS of different vegetables, and eat almost no processed foods and a low amount of grain based foods. And no, corn, peas, or beans, are not vegetables. Ironically the meat and dairy industry do not like those of us who eat grass fed, organic, naturally raised animal products, including raw milk, because they don’t profit at all from pastured animals raised by independent producers, but they do from ones raised by large companies, in confinements, on feedlots, and fed high-grain, fattening diets. It is not “junk science”. As a matter of fact, for the last 10 or so years, study after study has come out in favor of a diet WITHOUT vegetable oils and trans fat, and WITH saturated fats as being better for heart disease, cholesterol, and inflammation in general. The Masaii tribe in Africa eats almost NO vegetables at all, and drink milk, animal blood, and eat meat, mostly raw. Yet they have absolutely no degenerative diseases. Not all people groups can and should eat like that, however, their genetics allow it.
If you want to see studies, I recommend starting with a book by Dr. Campbell-McBride, as her simple book on heart disease has literally over 400 scientific journal studies references. Not that ALL unsaturated fats are bad, obviously fats from nuts are important, but many of the fats and oils today are highly processed, which changes the way our body digests and uses them. Most cultures for thousands of years only got their fats and oils from cold-pressing them, or by simply chewing and eating nuts, which is the best way to get them. Saturated fat is a vital nutrient in our diets. These fats are involved in many things, including cholesterol (healing) and brain function, and since the 1930’s or so, the food industry has been trying to convince us that fat makes us fat, when it is actually the simple carbs and processed foods and sugars that are the problem. There again, the food industry can profit when they have to synthesize, process and package a food, and then distribute it, but when you get food directly from a small produce or meat producer, no large companies profit.
Chris Brown says
apparently average life-span for a Maasai male is 43. you’d be hard-pressed to find Americans who walk 7+ miles a day and have coronary artery disease at age 43, even if they ate McDonalds five days a week. so perhaps the lack of coronary disease in the Maasai is not that meaningful.
incidentally, whether or not one gets regular aerobic activity is a huge variable that is as important as diet.
Denise says
Autopsies on young men killed in the /Vietnam war showed atherosclerotic heart disease. Many young people today show signs of it as well.
And you left out the reason for the 43 year life expectancy – jst like the studies you cite do to prove their points. . Here – I’ll share that:
“Raw milk is the main staple of the Maasai diet, consumed both fresh and curdled. They store it in long gourds, and sometimes mix it with blood taken from the cow’s jugular vein. Meat is eaten less frequently, but when there’s a kill, they may consume pounds at a time.
Interestingly, even though they eat almost double the recommended portion of animal fats, their cholesterol levels are slightly lower than normal. They also show very little evidence of cardiovascular disease.
Couple abundant regular exercise with the consumption of over 25 plant foods rich in anti-oxidants (some stronger than vitamins C and E), and you’d expect to hear that the Maasai have a long life expectancy.
Sadly, that’s not the case. Continual development encroaching on their semi-arid grazing lands, poor supplies of clean water, lack of sanitation, non-existent medical care and high levels of waterborne disease all take their toll. Many of their children die before reaching the age of five.
In today’s modern world, and even with the healing power of raw milk on their side, the average Maasai male can expect to live for only 43 years, compared to 77 years for males in the U.S. “
Jennifer White says
Sorry, if God didn’t want us to eat meat, he wouldn’t have made them out of food. 🙂
Joel says
Jennifer, you can eat bugs, dirt, crap, or just about anything and call it food. Have at it.
Commenter via Facebook says
The eye is blind to what the mind will not see…
BTW, there were no paleolithic vegetarians.
Commenter via Facebook says
PS. I enjoyed the article. 🙂
Commenter via Facebook says
Vegans make me laugh. Especially like the guy in this particular argument who tries to use “scientific studies” to prove that animal products are bad for you. He completely fails to acknowledge the science that shows that our bodies are meant to consume animal products. This is true whether you choose to believe in creation or evolution. If plant based diets are something we are supposed to all be consuming, then why do we start our lives eating an animal based food? We are, after all, mammals so our own human breast milk is an “animal” based food. LOL
SCSharon says
Hey,
This debate has been going on for years and years. In my 60 years, I was introduced to Adele Davis’ books at a young age. Heard that eggs, etc. were all bad, went on a very strict vegetarian diet. Gained lots of weight, felt lousy, tried numerous diets. Have read tons of books on diet. One day, picked up a paper with an article about WAPrice & his research (I don’t think the meat & dairy industry was paying him!!!) It just made so much sense! When you read history, look at bones from people centuries ago, who were elderly and had zero cavities. And WAPrice did fantastic research! I started eating butter, meat, and eggs, felt great! Stopped losing my teeth! Stopped gaining weight! Stopped getting colds and flu!
I also happen to believe in Creation by God. Thus: Adam and Eve were created more healthy, more intelligent, than any modern day people. The general trend is downhill. Ergo: The further back you go in history, during peaceful, civilized times, the better the diet would be. In general. It takes much more work to have a good diet now.
Anyway, Price made sense to this former vegetarian. And I have had to eat our pet goats. Couldn’t even give them away. Waste not, want not.
Also; God gave us permission in the Bible to eat meat.
That’s how traditional I am. Lol.
PRae becquart says
Yup! This argument was started in the 60s & it hasn’t been resolved yet! to each her own
Commenter via Facebook says
You can’t save the world. And you can’t tell something to someone they’re just not ready to hear. But please don’t make me pay for his medical bills, and PLEASE don’t call him my doctor?
Commenter via Facebook says
I am unaware of any documented traditional vegan societies prior to the sixties.
Commenter via Facebook says
How can you tell there’s a vegan at the party? Oh don’t worry they’ll tell you:)
Commenter via Facebook says
Sophie that’s quite true-a popular movie ‘supporting’ veganism did just that…it makes me nuts but…it’s free will.
Commenter via Facebook says
I think a poor diet makes people more combative.
karen ferguson says
Bingo….
PRae becquart says
Agreed!
Commenter via Facebook says
I had a similar debate to this earlier…and I don’t even have words for uninformed idiots! Good on you for doing this post and spreading the message. Recently someone told me it was not up for debate that studies show that meat and dairy consumption were the causes of heart disease and cancer…What this person failed to KNOW is that these ‘studies’ omitted taking into consideration the increase in the use of vegetable oils, sugar, etc..
Joel says
I’ll agree that we need more studies, and I’d bet my life that they show that plant based diets are superior. “uninformed idiot”?
Well, my passion in life is science and reason, and promote it whenever I can because this country is seriously lacking in that respect.
I have a 4 year old and a baby, and I would not play with their health and their lives by putting them on a vegan diet if if weren’t an informed decision.
Chris Brown says
Pamela,
There are certain Adkins-like diets that do not adversely affect traditional cardiac risk factors (like your cholesterol test) but that most certainly do increase inflammation and newer cardiac risk factors. If I were your age and I were devoted to a diet high in “healthy” saturated fats, I would ask my doctor to do an hs-CRP test to make sure I was doing as well as I thought I was. The CRP will have much more predictive value in your circumstance than either your cholesterol or your TGs.
Erin says
What would your response be to this article?
Erin says
https://www.sott.net/article/242516-Heart-Surgeon-Speaks-Out-On-What-Really-Causes-Heart-Disease
Chris Brown says
Erin, a lot of individual doctors have a lot of individual opinions, and that is not science, that is just what one person thinks. There is a structure for science; knowledge is gained by studies. And the highest quality of these studies are large, RANDOMIZED, CONTROLLED trials. It is especially difficult to do such studies when it comes to what people eat and the effects on their bodies, because for the most part, people eat what they want, and do not want to be part of a long-term study in which they are randomized to eat a certain way. BUT, believe it or not, such studies have been done. Very good ones in the 1970s using VA inpatients and psychiatric inpatients. And the clear take-away from those studies is that if you take a bunch of meat out of folks’ diets and you replace it with a bunch of soybean oil (just regular soybean oil, not the stuff that has been hydrogenated), there is less heart disease and even less cancer. For years, the low-fat crowd was politically popular, and so you didn’t hear about these studies, but now I think science has been restored more towards its proper place, and you see some of the best nutirtion experts advocating this. For example, at Harvard: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-eating-plate/
As for the ratio between omega-3 and omega-6, it is of some importance, and there is absolutely no doubt that eating grass fed beef or venison or bison is healthier than eating grain-fed beef, and that eating wild tuna and salmon are great foods. But one should not lose the forest for the trees; oils like soybean (and canola, sunflower, and safflower) are not bad for you.
Denise says
How do you deal with all of the studies that show that soy is goitrogenic and causes thyroid issues as well as cancers? How do you deal with the fact that almost all soy today is GMO?
“Soybeans are not a complete protein, are not a natural food, contain several harmful and even carcinogenic substances, and most are genetically modified.” ” As far back as the 1950’s. phyto- estrogens were being linked to increased cases of cancer, infertility, and leukemia.” From Ty Bollinger.
There is detailed research proving that genistein, which soybeans contain is even more carcinogenic than DES! And you recommend people use the oil? Go look-up the processes used to produce these oils you say are healthy. You will be appalled.
And I wouldn’t accept a study from Harvard as honest if you paid me! Maybe it’s time to update your your information, Doctor. Hedge funds are a far cry from good health knowledge today. Happy studying.
Joel says
Chris, this is what we’re dealing with…Denise said “And I wouldn’t accept a study from Harvard as honest if you paid me!”
But the studies funded by the meat and dairy industry are just fine by her.
Typical. You wanna eat what you wanna eat so you’ll ignore reality to continue to do so. So keep stuffing your face with that crap, have bypass surgery when you’re 60 and then go right back to it like everyone else. Your choice I guess.
Erin says
I would think that the majority of people that read this site do not stuff their faces with crap even if we do include animal fats in out diet (although I am sure there are some that do). Below I have commented on my family’s diet. I would also add that although we do eat meat (from sources we have actually visited and trust the practices of), we do not eat meat every day, maybe a couple of times a week. And when we do eat it, it is rarely the “feature” of the meal. Part of this is to cut down on costs, but also because I believe most people do eat far too much meat. Cutting out processed foods has been the much bigger issue for my family.
Denise says
But Joel. That is not what happens. I am healthy and my numbers are great. I have lost almost a hundred pounds. There are many studies that are truly independent. They do not show that vegan is good. Vegans have the HIGHEST all cause death rate of any demographic group. And those studies are not paid for by the meat and dairy industry.
You insult my intelligence. I have eight autoimmune diseases and am on NO medications. I treat myself with these foods you call crap. The reason I am doing so well is because I do not do what you say we must do to be healthy.
And neither you nor Chris have yet responded to the fact that animals tear each other apart every day. Why should we be any different? They eat each other in the most horrible way. At least WE treat our animals well and slaughter humanely.
Last, have you thought, Joel, what would happen if we stopped eating animals? The world would be overun in a matter of years.
DD says
That’s silly! If people stopped eating meat then farmers would stop breeding meat animals.
Carol Shilor says
Really? Because one minute we eat meat “because we’re at the top of the food chain.” Now we have to eat meat “because other animals do?” Part of evolution isn’t just getting us to the top, it’s also allowed us the capacity to reason, to be empathetic, and to not just run our lives on pure instinct.
But if you really want to do it like all other animals do it.. please let me know the next time you chase down a cow or pig and just bite into it. Let me know how that works for you.
In all seriousness, there is no comparison whatsoever. Animals that live and die as nature intended are a far cry from animals that are confined, caged, artificially inseminated, milked, separated from their young, and then brutally slaughtered. There’s nothing “natural” about that process. And no matter how grass-fed or free range your goods are, at least a couple of those things happen. Because there is no use for male chicks from egg laying hens (so we grind them up alive, or suffocate them in large garbage bags). And there is no use for the male calves of the dairy industry (so they are removed from their mother, intentionally malnutritioned, and confined for veal production).
And sorry, the latest research actually shows that people eating a whole foods, plant-based diet, tend to live an entire decade longer. Sure, there are junk food vegans, just like there are junk food omnivores. Neither one will live long. But it is entirely possible and healthy to eat a balanced, and unrefined, vegan diet. (So, by all means, use all the coconut and olive oil you can stand.)
Lele says
Carol, your emotions are out of control. Empathy is supposed to be felt towards other human beings, not animals. And if killing animals were unnatural, then all living beings would be eating inorganic matter. It is that simple. It was not us that made the rules. Animals do not exploit other species the way humans do only because they lack the intelligence to do so. However, I watched a documentary about baboons kidnapping dog puppies and raising them for their own benefit. And I know no societies where people live long lives while being 100% vegan.
Erin says
I can certainly see the problem with finding an abundance of scientific studies that show the heart health and overall health of people who eat as my family does–we are a minority (though growing!). I have no doubt that if you take a person that eats a bunch of fatty meat from grain-fed commercial farm animals and consumes a lot of dairy from these same type of cows, they will have a higher rate of heart disease than someone who does not. What I am not convinced of is that someone who applies the real food concepts (such as those that Michael Pollan and Sally Fallon endorse) is going to have the same higher rate of disease simply because they eat more saturated fats. We use cold-pressed olive oil, coconut oil, and butter (from raw milk, grass fed cows) as our main cooking fats. We do not consume milk, meat, or eggs from commercial farms but from local farms that use sustainable practices and are very strict about what the animals consume. We consume VERY little processed foods and eat a lot of fruits and vegetables and limited whole-grains. I do believe that the more people turn to traditional foods grown using sustainable practices, the more scientific evidence will begin to further back our beliefs.
Veronica says
The idea of applying “scientific method” to people’s eating and health is, in itself, impossible. Humans are deeply social, spiritual, environmental beings. Our eating has arisen out of this interconnected complexity of beingness and includes relationships with the land, the animals, the plants and each other. There is no way you can create a “controlled study” of damaged humans (VA inpatients and psychiatric patients) that would yield anything broadly applicable to the health of ‘normal’ people. And it is my understanding that nutrition is barely covered in medical school, so individual opinions of doctors regarding food, health and nutrition are little more than THEIR belief in the compiled ‘studies’ of others, which are often funded by hidden interests. Dr. Price has compiled quite a compendium of observations on many different populations eating many different combinations of foods. What these foods have in common is more remarkable than their differences. It is from this research, and from our own knowing of our own deep experience of enhanced wellness that we make choices fitting complex parameters in today’s world. We are grateful for the Joel Salatins who are showing us the way forward…not back….
Mike F says
Saturated fat prevents coronary artery disease? An American paradox
https://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/5/1102.full
Red meat from animals offered a grass diet increases plasma and platelet n-3 PUFA in healthy consumers
https://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=7948423&fulltextType=RA&fileId=S0007114510003090
Saturated fat and cardiovascular disease
https://www.ohsu.edu/xd/education/schools/school-of-medicine/departments/clinical-departments/psychiatry/grand-rounds/upload/Sat-Fat-and-CVD-Discrepency-Betw-Lit-Advice.pdf
Vegetarian diet and mental disorders: results from a representative community survey.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22676203
Your diet affects your grandchildren’s DNA, studies say
https://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57481348/your-diet-affects-your-grandchildrens-dna-studies-say/
From the above link: “It is possible that eating more omega-3 fatty acids, choline, betaine, folic acid and vitamin B12, by mothers and fathers, possibly can alter chromatin state and mutations, as well as have beneficial effects…leading to birth of a ‘super baby’ with long life and [lower risk] of diabetes and metabolic syndrome,”
I looked up these particular nutrients and this is where you can find them in food:
– Omega-3 Fatty acid: Wild Caught fish, grass-feed beef/lamb, pasture raised eggs
– Choline: Liver, eggs, & milk
– Betaine: Quinoa, Lamb, Beets, Rye, Fish
– Folic acid: Leafy vegetables, legumes, Egg yolk, bakers yeast, sunflower seeds, liver, kidney
-Vitamin B12: Beef liver, turkey/chicken giblets, pork liver, oysters, Crab, clams, cheese, eggs, milk
And the most important consideration of all.. while this article is about medical science the same can be said for nutrition and probably a lot of other ‘science’ fields.
Lies, Damned Lies, and Medical Science
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/11/lies-damned-lies-and-medical-science/308269/2/?single_page=true
Toni says
Chris,
My family has been on a long journey the past 2 years trying to find a healthy alternative to the Standard American Diet. We watched “Forks Over Knives” and I was almost convinced we should adopt a vegan diet. We did it for 2 months.
I still continued my research mainly to be able to convince my husband that we were healthier. Then I found “The Perfect Health Diet.” Written by 2 PhD scientists, one who works for Harvard and accesses the medical journals and studies daily, who healed their own medical issues through diet and some antibiotics, using the same science that you claim is the only way to come to the knowledge of truth.
If you’re looking for highly technical, very detailed review of medical studies to discover exactly what is a healthy diet, browse their website “perfecthealthdiet.com”.
IC says
How do you explain the very low instance of heart disease and cancer before the existance of vegetable oils (when people in this country ate four times as much butter?)
It is also ironic that you cite the 70s studies that treated humans much like animals are treated in CAFOs today . . .
Commenter via Facebook says
I agree with Annie. Strident people, and strident vegans in particular, can’t hear our arguments over their own voices. It’s unfortunate that he felt the need to go into your house, so to speak, and be unpleasant, but as I tell my 5 year old, it’s best to ignore other kids when they can’t play nicely.
Commenter via Facebook says
How people can still think that a vegetarian or vegan diet is healthy is beyond me. There is enough research out there proving otherwise that is much better than anything anybody could say in a comment back to this person.
Joel says
Kelly, what you are spreading is dangerous. To act as if “science” supports your claims is irresponsible and just ignorant. There is a growing mountain of evidence that plant based diets are far superior to meat. See my much longer post earlier… as I said, I can’t say that a small amount of meat will be harmful for you, but it’s not the optimal diet for health.
Denise says
Then please explain how the four fishermen lost on Edge Island for SIX YEARS with only reindeer and polar bear and LOTS of fat to eat were rescued in EXCELLENT HEALTH.
pamela says
I have been eating this way—healthy fats, meat, fish, eggs for some time now. I’m 65, my cholesterol and triglycerides are enviable. The old scare tactics just don’t hold water anymore.
karen ferguson says
hahahaha…
karen ferguson says
lost the rest of my post …sorry..that was meant to go under Kelly….
That’s exactly what what I was going to say. Their brains are starving and incapable of a correct synapse.
Hence, all I have to say is that I wish some of these bloaks would go get their own blog to pontificate on , doing exactly what they accuse us of doing.. talking blither.
Sheesh. Close-minded, angry and self-righteous: it’s a painful place to be.
Commenter via Facebook says
This is why the vegan is angry..he/she deficient in fats and the hormones are probably all over the map
Commenter via Facebook says
You can’t argue with them and change their mind, just like they can’t change ours. For every study out there for meat consumption there is one for no meat. You have to find what works for you and your body.
Commenter via Facebook says
Let the vegan be and let me enjoy some great grass fed cow butter!
karen ferguson says
I love you for this!!!
hugs…
k
Commenter via Facebook says
Agreed, you have to meet people where they’re at.
Mmmm Meat says
I’d totally eat my pets if I thought they tasted good.
Commenter via Facebook says
Not really. I don’t believe that anything I say will change his mind. How he’s eating is right for him at this point in his journey, and I don’t feel like I need to attempt to change that. With strident people, I just smile and nod.
Kelly says
I agree… In the past I was so invested in getting the word put about real healthy eating, I would be destroyed if they didn’t change their ways… People need to do this for themselves and obviously the army guy is very happy with his information and diet… Choices everyday!! And Consequences everyday!!!
Lisa says
Wow Joel, I do not think she was referring to how the pig was killed.. I think she was referring to how the pig was fed before it was killed. When animals are allowed to graze and eat what nature intended they are much healthier for us. I bet the people dropping dead left and right from heart issues are not eating organic red meat, organic eggs, and raw milk. Are you SERIOUS!
Joel says
Ummm, you really need to do more research on the real science behind eating meat. And I was being sarcastic with my comment about how the pig was killed. Raising a pig to eat what comes natural is only a way to make yourself feel better about the fact that it has to die a horrible death. If you wouldn’t kill and eat your dog (which is likely as healthy as a pig) then maybe you should consider other animals that end up on your plate. http://www.humanemyth.org …start here.
Marylynn says
Death is never truly humane, but it is part of life.
I went vegan for several years and went bad very quickly. I ate all unprocessed foods, plenty of iron rich foods, multi-vitamin, and B12 (methycobalmin) and D supplement. I drank fortified almond milk and coconut milks and ate vegan yogurts.
I have an autoimmune thyroid condition I got from a traumatic incident as a child, amongst other things. What I didn’t know is that people with autoimmune conditions do not absorb D or B12 well from supplements. I began to feel like garbage, and my teeth began to decay. I got cavities in my *front* teeth, which I’ve never had before. My hair began to fall out and I started getting shooting nerve pain in my hands and arms. I was cold all the time, and I was always hungry, no matter how much fat and how many nuts and carbs I ate. Incidentally, my cholesterol went up.
I was not aware that so many vegan foods contain goitrogens (soy is one, but almonds are, too). After ten years of being stable after thyroid surgery, I got another thyroid tumor last year from the almond milk I drank, along with the many other goitrogens in my diet (and I was not even having soy).
I felt bad when I went back to eating meat. Now, I am over it. I figure, as I mentioned, that death sucks. Animals in the wild sometimes kill each other in much more gory ways than we kill animals. They eat each other alive. They bite chunks out of each other while one is still running. It’s awful.
I figure if animals live a fairly happy life up until the moment of death, then it is really not much different than nature’s way. I had the “pleasure” of going for a walk in a field after it had been threshed. The leftover small mammals killed by the machines were not in much better shape than animals in a slaughterhouse. Eating vegan kills, too.
And if it is said that feeding a cow takes more grain than to feed a human, therefore creating more threshing carnage, one should look at grassfed cows, which is what I am eating. These cows live on grass fields and are not being given grain. They eat what is there. They eat bugs, too. Then they poop, and the chickens eat the bugs in the cow poop, and the ground gets fertilized and more grass grows, and the cows can eat again.
Again, this is obviously not true of CAFO animals or agriculture, but no one around here is condoning that. We try our best to know our farmers so when know that what they say is going on actually *is* going on.
If you take all CAFO arguments aside, very little is left. Animals die for you. If one cow dies for me to eat for 3 months (and that’s unlikely, given that I don’t eat much meat), hundreds of small mammals die for an acre of grain. Rabbits get poisoned to keep them away from grain and vegetable, coyote eat them and die.
If you feel that being vegan makes you a better, healthier person, then by all means go for it. Just understand that vituperous anti-meat agendas are not for everyone. Not everyone can lead a healthy life as a vegan, no matter how many times someone claims that this cannot be true. I am not an outlier; there are many others like me.
Your efforts are probably better directed toward people who support CAFOs and cheap meat. Look at Joel Salatin and Wallace Farms to see what real “grass farming” is like and how it protects the environment and ecosystems.
Wishing you all the best.
Marylynn says
As an added note, I would not eat my dog because I know him personally, not because he is a dog. I have eaten guinea pigs and rabbits while having others of the same species as pets. We had pet geese for eggs, and we had wild geese for dinner. Morality is subjective. That being said, obviously I would not eat a human, as some might suggest. That”s just crazy-talk.
Krista says
Eat fish….lots of it! Oysters are best, followed by squid, shrimp and clams. Check this out https://forum.jackkruse.com/showthread.php?834-Easy-Start-Guide-Leptin-Reset-and-Cold-Thermogenesis
Kelly says
The cause of heart disease is not eating meat. There is a major distinction between meat from animals raised naturally and those raised in CAFO farms. That meat just might do harm and that’s why I raise my own. Veganism is not a healthy choice for many people and it really does little to improve our environment. My animals live a great life and I appreciate my meals much more than the average person as a result. Since there are nutrients that are very hard to get without eating meat or animal products I find it hard to believe we aren’t created to eat meat.
Krista says
Yes!
Denise says
Joel, if animals eat and tear each other apart every day and we are animals – which I do not believe as we are created in God’s image – then what’s the problem? At least farmers raise them well and slaughter them humanely.
Joel says
No, no, no, no, no, no AND…no. Eggs are good for you? Fats from meat are good for you? In a world where people are dropping dead left and right, and where 500,000 heart surgeries happen EVERY year in the US, this kind of talk is misguided, ignorant and dangerous!
So you buy bacon from local farms where animals are treated better? Interesting, please tell me how they get this bacon out without putting a knife in the pig’s throat! Because, that would be something very interesting!
I’m not usually a conspiracy theorist, bus SERIOUSLY!??!?! Are you being paid by the meat and dairy industry to promote this stuff? Hopefully many of your readers can see through this crap. If anyone is interested in learning how to eat RIGHT, live LONGER, live HEALTHIER, fight off DISEASES, ELIMINATE your chance of heart disease, lower your risk of CANCER… please think about transitioning to a plant based diet. Unlike you, I don’t have some hidden agenda. I want people to go vegan for their health, for the animals, for our environment. Sorry, but linking to junk science bs websites doesn’t convince most smart people that “people with higher cholesterol live longer”… duh.
KitchenKop says
So just to be clear… You believe that the foods we’ve been eating for *thousands* of years are responsible for the health conditions that have come about in just the past few decades?
EllaJac says
I’ve actually been hoping to talk to someone like you Joel (and I mean that in all sincerity, not sassy)… I am a wannabe farmer, to a point, and I have read extensively about natural soil fertility, carbon sequestration, perennial grasses & legumes, and herbivores on pasture.
My question(s) are directed at the vegan “better for the animals, for our environment” argument… {Please correct any assumptions I make here, as I’m not totally informed on the vegan thing.} Assuming the world’s population could and would switch to a vegan lifestyle, they would increase their consumption of grains and legumes, perhaps soy especially, as it is high in protein (I’ve heard the argument that one steak/cow/etc is in exchange of dozens of bowls of soy protein). To grow a grain or seed/bean crop that is harvested off the land requires MASSIVE soil fertility. Hundreds of years ago (and in some places still today), one could only plant and harvest such a crop about once every 7 years, on the same ground. In the meantime, pasture was in place where herbivores (cattle, deer, buffalo, sheep, etc) grazed. I could go into crazy detail on even the hoofprints’ effects on water penetration, etc, but suffice it to say that an herbivore grazing grass (solar-grown protein humans can’t digest) returns rich fertility to the soil – not only through waste, but via the growth/graze/root-dieoff/growth cycle of a perennial plant. If we didn’t use this process, we might use other composted plant matter (harvested off some other plot of land which is now bereft of it), but it will not even come CLOSE to the restoration of the soil available through herbivores. One might use petroleum based fertilizer (NPK), but I would hope vegans who care for the environment wouldn’t advocate that. There is NO WAY to grow a crop of soybeans or grains (huge feeders) two years in a row (let alone world-without-end) without massive fertility inputs of SOME kind (NPK, or even composted manure from animals living elsewhere).
So, how does veganism on a massive scale reconcile these agricultural truths?
I suppose we could keep a small number of ‘pet’ herbivores to manage for the six years between seed-harvests, but that’s a LOT of work (ask me) and a LOT of land that is effectively non-productive 86% of the time, where we COULD be harvesting milk and meat and high quality food for hungry people.
Your thoughts?
Joel says
EllaJac, thanks for your thoughtful questions, and I appreciate your openness to discuss this topic. Most people get really defensive and dislike vegans because they think we are holier-than-thou or something.
Anyway, you are probably more knowledgeable than me on things like soil content, etc. It’s the first time I’ve heard that questions asked. It does SOUND like something that the meat industry would be promoting, so just find other sources and look around. The meat and dairy industry are under attack right now with veganism gaining acceptance, so they are fighting back with misleading information being put up everywhere. So just be careful.
It takes 7 lbs of grain to make 1 lb of beef…eliminating the livestock industry can feed the world something like 6x over. Raising livestock is expensive for this reason, which is why CAFOs have become the norm…it’s all about cutting cost without regard for the animals. There is no such thing as humane meat. However, for folks who believe that, you should know that it’s not sustainable to feed the world on non factory farmed meat… it’s just not possible to meet the demand.
The livestock industry is also responsible for more enviornmental destruction than transportation industry of the entire world. Take every car, truck, etc off the streets and it would do less good than stopping the livestock industry.
There is NO health requirement for meat. I know hundreds of vegans and vegan children who are thriving on a vegan diet. Seniors who have more energy, etc. This is anecdotal, but almost any study you can ever find will tell you that a meat-based diet is worse for you than a plant-based diet. Can I say that eating a small amount of meat will kill you? No, I can’t . The American diet does it all wrong, with meat at the center when it should just be a small side. Now, that said, I think there is an enormous ethical problem with meat. I really think most people, and most people attacking me on this thread, don’t have a clue what kind of abuse and torture these animals have to endure…yes, even the grass fed, free range ones end up at slaughterhouses. Billions of baby chicks are ground up alive just because they are male and there is no need for male chickens. The dairy industry may be the cruelest of all… even if you think dairy cows are treated better (they’re not) or live longer (they do in some cases) they have to get pregnant about once a year to continue to produce milk, and where do you think the baby cows go? They can’t be left around to drink up all that milk, they go for veal. It may make these people feel better morally to know their animals get to eat some grass outside, but that’s just putting a facade on the unfathomable abuses that animals endure.
Humans don’t need milk, meat, eggs, cheese to live. It’s literally killing us. Some people think humans are above animals, and we are in some ways, but not in our capacity to suffer. When an animal experiences pain or suffering, it feels the same way that I would feel if it happened to me (of course, long term psychological suffering may be somewhat worse for humans since we have more of a capacity to contemplate our future and remember our past, but the more we learn about animals, it’s very surprising how similar they are in these respects). So why would I want a cow, pig or chicken to suffer? Just because I’m hungry? When I could easily choose to eat something else that’s even more healthy for me? It doesn’t make sense. Those animals do have a will to live, just like you and I, and they literally get shot, their throats sliced open and chopped up into a million pieces…. from a sentient being who had a will to live and a desire to experience pleasure. People are better than this.
EllaJac, I think your questions are relevant to this discussion. The future of agriculture will probably consist of growing gardens in skyscrapers (veritcal farming) and other things that we are still only thinking about.
Just because our ancestors did something is about the last reason I would do something….they also raped, murdered, etc. We are not Neanderthals!
Krista says
Oh you poor, misguided dear…..I hope you do well on your diet but in all seriousness….lets race.You follow your pathetic vegan/vegetarian agenda, I’ll do paleo. Talk to me in 10 years.
Joel says
Krista, I’d be happy to have any type of competition… cholesterol check? Mental aquity? Blood pressure? Run a marathon? Let’s do it.
Katie says
Hi Kelly,
I’m new to healthy eating…gave up sweets and processed foods about 6 weeks ago and already losing weight and feeling fantastic! I loved this post, as I am still learning about everything.
One quick comment/question (although I haven’t read any of your referenced articles yet)- my sister recommended cooking with grapeseed oil, as it has a high boiling point (not sure I used the correct term, but you know what I mean…). What’s your take on that?
KitchenKop says
Hi Katie,
Here’s some good scoop on grapeseed oil: https://kellythekitchenkop.com/2009/05/is-grapeseed-oil-a-good-choice-random-reader-question.html
Hope that helps!
Kelly
Chris Brown says
Kelly,
If you felt bad when Google ads on your site encouraged people to be on the wrong side of Ohio’s Issue 2, how would you feel about causing your readers extra heart attacks and cancer cases with misinformation?
The assault on vegetable oils is completely scientifically unwarranted. There is good randomized, clinical trial evidence in actual human beings from the 1970s that substituting fat calories from meat with fat calories from simple (not hydrogenated) soybean oil, actually reduces heart attacks, strokes, and cancer.
In addition to this amazing, high-quality evidence, there is also decades of data from the Nurses’ Health Study that shows better cardiovascular outcomes (i.e. fewer heart attacks) are strongly associated with increased intake of unsaturated fats, and worse outcomes are strongly associated with trans fats.
Most recently, the meta-analysis on red meat consumption which came out showed that the healthiest thing study participants could eat instead of red meat was not carbs, but was, in fact, nuts (which almost without exception, are high in unsaturated fats).
When I was a physician in the military, I achieved an LDL in the 70s, and an HDL in the 80s, simply by exercising regularly, having a serving of alcohol almost every day, and eating a diet high in unsaturated fats (like the kind in nuts, canola, sunflower, and safflower oils).
There is a tremendous amount of misinformation out there from the food industry, from “health food stores”, from health care professionals, and otherwise, so it’s important to look at the highest quality sources of evidence and make our diet decisions based on those. If anyone would like, please feel free to contact me and I will share a copy of my Powerpoint presentation on Diet and Mortality, containing info and citations from some of the best studies that have been done. It’s a bit dated (I left medicine to start a hedge fund), but it is still better than most of what is out there, with the added benefit that it is free.
KitchenKop says
Hi Chris,
Have you had a chance to look around the WestonAPrice.org site? It’s full of solid articles and they’re highly referenced. Beyond that, and more convincing to me than any study, is that the diet they recommend makes sense, common sense. It’s what people have eaten for centuries before everyone started getting really sick in the last few decades, and before the newer vegetable oils came onto the scene. Not that veg oils are the *only* reason for an increase in chronic disease, there are more, as we all know. But I’ve been eating this way for years and feel great and I hear from readers everyday who say the same.
Kelly
Joel says
Thank you Chris, for calling out this hogwash.
Denise says
Hmmm . . . Joel, I am a person who deals with many diseases. Lupus, R.A. and Hashimoto’s among them. I have been very successful by NOT doing what doctors tell me, including how to eat. When I switched to this diet, my symptoms improved dramatically. I once consumed nothing but raw milk – from grassfed Jersey cows – for four months. A gallon a day!!! (J.R.Crewe’s Milk Cure) I was blooming with health. Almost pain free and lost a lot of weight. You just can’t beat this way of eating. If it’s “hogwash” then I’ll roll with the hogs like Mary Enig, Sally Fallon and Kelly – my Kitchen Kop! The proof is in the pudding.
Joel says
So you want all of society to do something because it worked for you? Completely anecdotal.
Denise says
It appears “all of society” is doing pretty poorly on the new diet of processed foods and vegetable oils. I far prefer to be anecdotal – it’s much better and more comfortable. And there are LOTS of us!
karen ferguson says
Say Joel, et. al. somewhere in your unhappy tirade you said something about vegans being seen as what was the word?? You were trying to look disparaging and diplomatic. Well, read the above post and recognize that is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to getting your reputation. Please preach to someone who cares. There’s a difference between preaching and discussing. No one has called your ‘data’ hogwash. Bottom line: You owe Kelly an apology. But then, you’ll probably trolling along, eh?? NBD.
Actually, I don’t give a hoot whether you believe it or not. When someone preaches at me, it tends to lean me toward the “I don’t care what you think, where you got your information nor how you feel.”
It’s personal choice. So don’t go tellin’ women what to eat: it’s a losing proposition on your part. And, don’t tell me what to think either.
And, why not use your last name??
Kelly has been cordial because that is who Kelly is…diplomatic. But you aren’t on my blog and I can tell you that you are only alienating. The vegans that are my friends would do no such thing. I know what works for me: for your to assume that you KNOW what is good for me borders on narcissism.
Try on a diet like a pair of clothes and see how it fits.
I have over 109 vegetarian etc. books/research papers at home: I’ve done both sides of the research and I’ll stick to what works for me.
Guess what? We’re real smart here. Intimidation doesn’t work.
Why not help those that are on the side of your belief system do it
better? That would useful and a better use of time. I work with eating disorders in men, women and teens followed by 9 year olds on diets. It’s rampant and a catch-22: can’t think, can’t get help, can’t get help, can’t get better…start over. Vicious cycle.
Heaven help us.
Joel Kerr says
Karen, you sound like a slave owner who calls an abolishionist out for an “unhappy tirade” for saying something that challenged the status quo.
Please read my earlier post about why I think this is so important, and why I am so passionate about it.
I don’t believe it should be your right to treat animals the way they are treated, and I do believe that will change. I’m not telling you what to eat, I’m telling you to not harm animals. Don’t harm any animals and feel free to eat what you wish.
If I were trying to intimidate, I would be much more abrasive than I’ve been. It’s hard to sit silent while a holocaust rages behing closed doors all across America.
I’m not trolling… I saw this blog making it’s way around the web and people talking about it, and I felt like I had to speak up to offer an alternative viewpoint because I think promoting eating lard and that sort of thing is unhealthy.
Kimberly says
Please do NOT use the term “holocaust” to refer to animals being used the way God intended. It’s very offensive.
Denise says
You wouldn’t want to eat canola now – it is all GMO. Maybe instead of relying on your older data, which is manipulated, you need to do some new research? The proof is in the pudding and the way of eating Kelly describes is simply eating real food. You will need to go much deeper to get at the truth than what you knew while in the army.
Guenn Johnsen-Gentry says
Your information seems VERY outdated. “Science” is very often influenced by industry and government funded studies which emanate from organizations who may be receiving funding from industry sources who have a vested interest in selling their products whether they have been proven healthy or not. In many cases we are the test population and you can see how that is going since people have been consuming very high quantities of highly refined oils relatively recently (within the last 50 years) so I would not trust any of that information. Refined vegetable oil starts from the seeds of various plant sources. The fats from plant seeds are polyunsaturated, meaning they remain in a fluid state at room temperature.
There are many different kinds of commercially refined vegetable based oils, including canola or rapeseed oil, soybean oil, canola oil, corn oil, sunflower oil, safflower oil, and peanut oil. The generic cooking term “vegetable oil” refers to a blend of a variety of oils often based on palm, corn, soybean or sunflower oils. Refined cooking oils are made by highly intensive mechanical and chemical processes to extract the oil from the seeds. This process removes the natural nutrients from the seeds and creates a final product which oxidizes easily. The oxidation factor makes these oils more likely to break down into cancer causing free radicals within the body.
In addition, many refined vegetable oils are also hydrogenated. This hydrogenation process makes them solid at room temperature so they can be sold as margarine and shortening. This hydrogenation process further damages the fatty acids in the oils, creating trans fatty acids, which are particularly dangerous to human health. The consumption of vegetable oils created through chemical extraction processes is linked to widespread inflammation within the body, elevated blood triglycerides, and an impaired insulin response. These oils have been linked to diabetes, cancer and heart disease in multiple studies.
The process of extracting vegetable oil from oil seeds is not for the squeamish. Take a look at the steps and decide for yourself if this is a “food” you want to consume: Oil seeds such as soybean, rapeseed, cotton, sunflower are gathered. Most of these seeds are from plants that have been genetically engineered to resist the huge amounts of pesticides applied to them. The seeds are husked and cleaned of dirt and dust, then crushed. The crushed seeds are then heated to temperatures between 110 degrees and 180 degrees in a steam bath to start the oil extraction process. The seeds are put through a high volume press which uses high heat and friction to press the oil from the seed pulp. The seed pulp and oil are then put through a hexane solvent bath and steamed again to squeeze out more oil.
Note: Hexane is produced by the refining of crude petroleum oil. It is a mild anesthetic. Inhalation of high concentrations produces first a state of mild euphoria, followed by sleepiness with headaches and nausea. Chronic intoxication from hexane has been observed in recreational solvent abusers and in workers in the shoe manufacturing, furniture restoration and automobile construction industries where hexane is used as a glue. The initial symptoms are tingling and cramps in the arms and legs, followed by general muscular weakness. In severe cases, atrophy of the skeletal muscles is observed, along with a loss of coordination and problems of vision. In 2001, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency issued regulations on the control of emissions of hexane gas due to its potential carcinogenic properties and environmental concerns.
Now the seed/oil mixture is put through a centrifuge and phosphate is added to begin the separation of the oil and seed residues. After solvent extraction, the crude oil is separated and the solvent is evaporated and recovered. The seed pulp residues are conditioned and reprocessed to make by-products such as animal feed. The crude vegetable oil is then put through further refining techniques including degumming, neutralization and bleaching: Water degumming: In this process, water is added to the oil. After a certain reaction period the hydrated phosphatides can be separated either by decantation (settling) or continuously by means of centrifuges. In this process step a large part of water soluble and even a small proportion of the non-water soluble phophatides are removed. The extracted gums can be processed into lecithin for food, feed or for technical purposes.
Neutralization: Any free fatty acids, phospholipids, pigments, and waxes in the extracted oil promote fat oxidation and lead to undesirable colors and oders in the final products. These impurities are removed by treating the oil with caustic soda (sodium hydroxide) or soda ash (sodium carbonate). The impurities settle to the bottom and are drawn off. The refined oils are lighter in colour, less viscous, and more susceptible to oxidation. Hmmm, lucky for us.
Bleaching: The major purpose of bleaching is the removal of off colored materials in the oil. The heated oil is treated with various bleaching agents such as fuller’s earth, activated carbon, or activated clays. Many impurities, including chlorophyll and carotenoid pigments, are absorbed by this process and removed by filtration. However, bleaching also promotes fat oxidation since some natural antioxidants and nutrients are removed along with the impurities.
Deodorization is the final step in the refining of vegetable oils. Pressurize steam at extremely high temps (500 degrees or more) is used to remove volatile compounds which would cause off odors and tastes in the final product. The oil produced is referred to as “refined oil” and is ready to be consumed or for the manufacture of other products. A light solution of citric acid is often added during this step to inactivate any metals such as iron or copper present in the final product.
The process of refining vegetable oil damages the fats and makes the oils very unstable and prone to going rancid quite easily. Rancid oils in any form are particularly bad for your health because they introduce cancer causing free radicals into your body, without the benefit of including an antioxidant like vitamin E.
Mary Enig and Sally Fallon of the Weston A. Price Foundation discuss this:
“High-temperature processing causes the weak carbon bonds of unsaturated fatty acids, especially triple unsaturated linolenic acid, to break apart, thereby creating dangerous free radicals. In addition, antioxidants, such as fat-soluble vitamin E, which protect the body from the ravages of free radicals, are neutralized or destroyed by high temperatures and pressures. BHT and BHA, both suspected of causing cancer and brain damage, are often added to these oils to replace vitamin E and other natural preservatives destroyed by heat.”
Now I ask you, does any of this sound healthy?
Chris Brown says
here’s my lipid panel from yesterday:
total cholesterol 139
HDL 64
LDL 67
tg 39.
now you have an anecdote to go with my “dated” data.
Denise says
I wouldn’t be too proud of those numbers. They are dangerously low. Higher levels of cholesterol in older people have consistently been found to have a protective effect.
“There have been many studies over the years connecting low cholesterol levels with cancer and a host of other diseases, including, hyperthyroidism, liver disease, Parkinson’s and depression, among others.
At the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, scientists found that men with LDL cholesterol levels between 91 and 135 had six times the likelihood of having Parkinson’s disease as those with LDL levels above 135.
A study at the National Human Genome Research Institute, part of the National Institutes of Health, found that pregnant women who have very low cholesterol levels have an increased risk of giving birth to low birth weight babies. They think the reason for this is because cholesterol is necessary to maintain the integrity of the vessel wall and that low levels might lead to “leaky vessels.”
At the 24th American Heart Association Conference on Stroke and Cerebral Circulation, researchers found that as an individual’s cholesterol level rose above 230 mg/dl, their risk of ischemic stroke increased. But the researchers also found that as cholesterol dropped, the risk of stroke increased significantly. A person with a cholesterol level below 180 mg/dl had twice the risk of stroke compared with someone with a level of 230 mg/dl. Another study found that men with cholesterol levels below 150 mg/dl had four times the risk of cerebral hemorrhage compared with men who had cholesterol levels about 190 mg/dl.”
From https://www.visivite.com/low-cholesterol.html
Results:
When compared to people with normal cholesterol levels (161-202 mgs/dl), men with low cholesterol (less then 161mgs/dl) had a 49% increased rate of death from hemorrhagic stroke, heart failure and cancer while women had a 50% increased chance of death from the same.
On the other hand, those with high cholesterol (greater then 242) had no increased risk of death.
Cholesterol as low as yours is not a good thing.
Guenn Johnsen-Gentry says
It is amazing to me that so many otherwise intelligent people out there fully believe that the products of an industrial food system which values profits at any cost (and has had an incredibly negative impact on human health over the last several decades) could possibly be healthier than the traditional recipes and methods of food production of our ancestors over THOUSANDS of years. It is really testament to how brainwashed we are by modernity and technology (which has subsequently created every problem we are now facing on this planet) that we continue to believe this absolute nonsense. When will people in this country wake up to reality. Convenience food is a total farce.
Victoria says
I use safflower oil to make vinaigrette. I find the taste of EVOO to be to strong, I love just being able to taste the vinegar. Is there a reason safflower oil should be avoided? So far my reading, I have only read positive things about the oil. I have learned so much from your site and any additional insights you might be able to offer would be great. Thanks : )
KitchenKop says
Hi Victoria,
Here’s an article to help you learn more: https://www.westonaprice.org/know-your-fats/skinny-on-fats
Kelly
Victoria says
Thanks for the amazing article! I learned so much!
B.B says
“Favor cooking methods that use moderate heat, and avoid cooking with unstable vegetable oils. Very high heat methods, such as grilling, can turn even good fat into trans fat”.
Uh oh. How else can I cook my burger meat (from frozen). I’ve been eating them almost daily
KitchenKop says
Do you mean that you grill your burger now? If so, just do it on medium indirect heat after a quick sear. That’s what we do. 🙂
B.B says
Thanks ! Yes, I do grill my burgers.
Sorry what do you mean by ‘just do it on medium indirect heat after a quick sear’.. what’s a quick sear, sorry. And did you mean grill it after I sear it..?
KitchenKop says
Kent has one burner on and will “sear” the meat there (a quick shot of heat to color and flavor the meat), and then move it off that direct heat to finish heating on the grill (just in another spot not right over the flame) with indirect heat.
Tracy says
Hi Kelly, my baking recipes call for canola oil. What other healthier oils/fats could I use instead? I heard that olive oil is not a very good option as it imparts more of a taste than vegetable oil.
KitchenKop says
Melted butter! 🙂 That’s what I use.
Kel
Adele says
Coconut oil is a great option as well.
Gail says
I second the coconut oil, particularly in chocolate recipes or sugar cookie recipes. It doesn’t necessarily impart a “coconut” flavor so much as an “Oh my gosh these are so good! What is that?” flavor.
Katie @ Kitchen Stewardship says
Kelly,
As far as I can tell, any extra virgin olive oil must be cold-pressed, or it won’t meet the standards to be “extra virgin”. You probably don’t have to worry about your bottle even if it doesn’t advertise “cold-pressed”! (Although I realize this is an old post and you’ve probably already resolved this.)
Katie
Kelly the Kitchen Kop says
Hi Natalie,
I started to answer your question, then it got very long, so I decided I’d just do a post on it soon – look for it Friday or Monday. 🙂 Thanks for the great question and post idea!
Kelly
Kelly the Kitchen Kop says
Hi Barbaralee,
I hope after reading more here that you’re convinced to throw out your Crisco! Butter can be expensive (especially the organic kind I buy), but I’ve come around to the fact that it’s worth it to spend money on our health. When you’re eating healthier, there are other things you WON’T have to buy anymore, like expensive sugar bomb breakfast cereals, pop, etc.! 🙂
Kelly
BarbaraLee says
Just reading some of your blogs.
Dh would love me to bake w/butter instead of crisco/butter. But I always thought it was pricey.
Anna says
Don’t forget, it’s high carbohydrate diets that raise triglycerides (yes, the body makes fat from carbs). And high barb diets also cause the LDL cholesterol to be the small, numerous kind (that’s the wrong kind) instead of the large fluffy kind (that’s the good kind of LDL).
Saturated fats raise HDL (the kind “they” are telling us is “good”). So if you pay any attention to cholesterol, you should stick to traditional fats and dump the modern, industrial fats (as Kelly says) and reduce your carb intake, too.
Bryan - oz4caster says
Great post Kelly! I’ve read that beef tallow is good for occasional frying, though I’ve never tried it.
The WAPF article “Know Your Fats” that you referenced is my favorite on the subject and it’s what sold me on changing my diet.