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Do you wonder: Do we need extra vitamin D if we're taking fermented cod liver oil?
Long-time readers here at the blog have often heard me mention what a difference taking cod liver oil has made for our family's health. Normally it keeps us from getting sick, but if we do get a rare bug, it helps us over it quickly. Read “It Happened AGAIN” for more about that. It also calms my nerves, which is why I call it my “All Natural Chill Pill“. 🙂
- Here's more about cod liver oil brands I recommend.
- Here's where to read more about cod liver oil – all sorts of scoop is at this CLO index post.
I've attributed these health benefits to the fat soluble vitamins A & D, and also to the omega-3 fatty acids, DHA and EPA in the cod liver oil. But above all, I've always assumed that it was especially the vitamin D making the difference. So because we noticed such drastic and obvious health effects after taking the fermented cod liver oil (or taking extra if we were already doing a good job of remembering to take it daily), I assumed we were getting enough vitamin D overall.
I'm still not convinced that we're not getting enough D, but recently the comments have fired up at this post, Addressing the recent cod liver oil bashing from Dr. Mercola and Dr. Cannell, and some are saying that although they take CLO, they've found that their Vitamin D is low, so they are supplementing.
Note that this is the kind of vitamin D we take for extra supplementing, in winter months especially.
Here's a peek at a conversation between a couple of commenters…
In October my three younger children, ages, 15, 12 and 8 had their levels taken.They were all low. We take FCLO and our pediatrician, who is very holistic, said that she has had other patients who take FCLO and they all have low vitamin D levels….. and she concludes that FCLO is not a good source of Vitamin D. She didn’t discourage the supplement, but just pointed out that it doesn’t appear to be a good source of Vitamin D. So my children take extra Vitamin D3. Also, not sure if it is related, but my youngest had problems with cavities and since we have taken the D3, she has had good dental checkups….. Her level had been very low.
Thank you for sharing this information Maria! I’ve scoured the net trying to see if anyone had low Vit D levels tested while on FCLO and all I’ve found are people shouting the praises of FCLO. Even the product analysis data on the Green Pasture’s website indicates that on average, there should be anywhere from 2000-4000IU of D/tsp of FCLO. May I ask how much of the Vit D3 you give your kids? Do you give it in addition to the FCLO? Now, I’m wondering about my 8 year old son as he gets 1/2 tsp FCLO/day. Since I found out I was so low in D while on FCLO, I started to give him an extra 500 IU of D3/day. I suppose I should just get him tested though to find out what his D levels are.
2000 per day is what our pediatrician recommended, she was not brand specific. This is the brand that our naturopathic doc recommends.
So what do YOU say? Have you had any testing done or any other reason to assume your Vitamin D may be low, even if you're taking the FCLO?
My best guess is that, no big surprise, everyone is different. For some the Vitamin D in the FCLO may be enough, and for others, probably depending on other factors (maybe not enough healthy fats otherwise in the diet to absorb all the D?), they may need more.
So that begs the question, should we all be tested to be sure?
Which begs the next question, what's the best way to get tested?
That's where I hope you'll jump in. Have you had your Vitamin D tested? If so, what test did you use? How much did it cost? Did you have to go through a doctor?
Thank you for any input you can provide into this issue!
- Also don't miss this one: If you take vitamin D or Calcium, here's what you also MUST do.
- What kind to get if you're going to supplement with vitamin D? — Again, we only take this one.
Everyone here is completely wrong. Educate yourself before making such ignorant comments. If the minimum dosage to raise vitamin D levels above 30 is 6,000 iu’s, how on earth do you think you’re going to raise your vitamin D level 70-90 by taking half a teaspoon of cod liver oil? You’re all still deficient because you aren’t taking enough. You make 20,000+ in the sun for a reason. We’ve all been lied to about how much vitamin D we really need. Taking 500-1,000 iu’s wont’ do anything. It will simply keep you in the low thirties or high to low twenties. Most cod liver oils are extremely low in D3 due to the processing, and deodorizing they go through. This processes removes most of the vitamin D. Fermented cod liver oil on the other hand doesn’t go through this, and all the D stays. If you’re still deficient from taking FCLO, don’t take half a teaspoon. If the minimum within a teaspoon is 2,000 iu’s you can see that taking a TABLESPOON would guarantee you a minimum of 6,000 iu’s, or more. This dosage can get you all the way to 80-90 vitamin D levels. By the way, no it is not D2, its D3 and they both must go through the same conversion. It wouldn’t matter if it was D2, but it’s not. Good luck.
Getting ample exposure to the sun is your best source of vitamin D3 bar none. For those living in northern climates, people who work indoors, children who spend a great deal of time indoors, sunscreens, poor diet, obesity, darker skin, etc. contribute to vitamin D deficiency. In Norway (land of the midnight sun) where a typical winter’s day brings 20 hours of darkness in the south and 24 hours hours of darkness in the north getting enough sunshine is impossible. A traditional dish which is much more common in the rural coastal northern areas of Norway than among the more urban centers is cod “mølje”. This dish is prepared by boiling the cod, cod livers and pale orange cod roe in water. These are then mixed with fresh cod liver oil and eaten. A true Viking feast! And very tasty! This dish is also remarkably rich in vitamin D. Magritt Brustad, head of department of Community Medicine, University of Tromsø, studied the traditional dietary dish of mølje. She measured the vitamin D levels of fish eaters before and after having a meal of cod, livers and roes. The results were startling. Those who had low vitamin D levels had a measurable increase by eating only one meal of cod, liver and roe. When researchers studied vitamin D levels of a population in Andenes (a village in the Vesterålen district of Nordland county, Northern Norway), they discovered that they actually had equally high levels of vitamin D in the winter as they had in the summer. Extra Virgin Cod Liver Oil contains 400-500 IU of vitamin D3 (it ranges depending on the season). This is the highest amount of vitamin D3 of any food based supplement found anywhere in the world. The vitamin D3 in cod liver oil takes the same pathway as vitamin D3 created by exposure to the sun. I do not take nor do I give my son EVCLO everyday. I give him a half teaspoon every other day during the winter and that seems to be plenty. Make sure you are getting the right form of vitamin D, you want D3, not D2 or D3 from sheep’s wool.
If you look at the testing on the FCLO it says that the vitamin D is mostly D2 with a little D3.
Exactly my dilemma! I was on a high dosage Vitamin D shot of about 100,000IU once every 3 months. When I discovered FCLO on Chriskesser’s blog, I ditched the supplement and started with FCLO since it was a ‘real food’ supplement. But 6 months later my D3 levels had dropped from 70nmol to 36nmol ! It has nothing to do with the FCLO probably because I know D3 absorption is dependent on a number of health markers. It was just not working out for me. So I went back to my GP prescribed D3 shots now and doing better. I had the EBV virus last year, so I really have to make sure my D3 and immunity are really good all the time. I think the FCLO has other potent benefits that I can really help my immunity status and frequent fatigue attacks. Also I am planning to have a baby very soon. Can i continue to take the FCLO in addition to my D3 shots or would I be overdoing it? Any thoughts?
That’s something you’d have to talk with your health care person about, but if it were me I’d keep taking it because there are so many benefits for your baby’s brain. 🙂
Kelly
See, that’s where the problem is! 🙁 Conventional doctors have no clue about what FCLO is and the FCLO has no details about A and D levels in IU or mcg etc., which can help a doctor who is not aware of the benefits of FCLO to take a call on this! I should try asking a naturopath.
Yes, that’s what I meant actually. Mainstream docs have never heard of FCLO! 🙂
Do you know that EBV can disable the vitamin d receptor? It happened to my son. I heard an excellent presentation on this, also read an article on how to help this nutritionally… will have to find it.
I seem to be having a different experience from most people but my D levels were 52 beginning of autumn 2013 and a couple weeks ago (jan. 2014) down to 41..still good with only FCLO supplementation. 2 years ago my levels were 30 (up from a measly 18 with D3 supplements the year before..my first ever D3 test). The last 2 years the only supplement I’ve had was FCLO but we do buy ALL pasture raised meat, eggs, raw milk etc. ..for a couple years now. I don’t think you can get all you need from one source…except maybe sunshine.
I too have just had a vitamin d test done that shows that taking FCLO is not enough to raise or maintain vitamin d levels. Mine dropped by 50% in 6 months. vitamin d is inversely related to melatonin – I had a salivary melatonin test in Jan which showed abnormally high melatonin. I should have realised then that I had a problem. I’m now taking a loading dose of vitamin d3 to try to raise my levels back to normal quickly. I love what FCLO does for my teeth but it’s not a substitute for d3 supplementation!
I listened to the Healthy Life Summit. Dr. Carolyn Dean is an expert on magnesium. She said that taking extra vitamin D causes absorption of more calcium, which throws off the magnesium balance. Too much calcium leads to other problems.
I’m on the fence about how to handle this. It’s really interesting to read about important substances such as magnesium, iodine, zinc, potassium, vitamin D, A, K2, etc… Every article or book says that there’s a vast deficiency in the population for whatever nutrient they are writing about. I think it’s an American personality quirk to go overboard good things, thinking more is better. The good thing about food based supplements is that they are in balance in nature. Maybe take FCLO and get more sunshine. Of course this isn’t possible in winter.
A few years ago I read about red palm oil to prevent sunburn. I bought it from Wilderness Family Naturals and it is also sold at Tropical Traditions. I am not sure it works, but I take about 1 T of this oil every day in spring and summer to avoid sunburn. I have also read about taking megadoses of vitamin B complex to discourage mosquitoes.
Hi ValerieH,
I know exactly what you mean! Who do you believe? Dr. Dean believes that the reason people are testing low on Vit D is because the body has too much calcium, so the body is not absorbing as much Vit D as a protective mechanism to avoid over-calcification of the body. There’s also the theory that people are testing low on Vit D because of a magnesium deficiency since we need mag to convert to the storage form of D, which is what is measured. So, were my deficient D levels supposed to be low because of my body’s natural way of protecting itself (even though I hardly eat any dairy – so I can’t see that over-calcification was a problem for me; plus I’m an avid magnesium user) or was I really in fact Vit D deficient because of lack of sun exposure and/or not being able to utilize the ample D2 in the FCLO/BO? How do you tell? I actually asked Dr. Dean this same question and she suggested to take more FCLO/BO until my D levels came up. However, I decided not to follow her advice on this one because I didn’t want to overdo on the Vit A content and since I knew my D levels weren’t very good on the standard FCLO dose – how much would I need to get my D levels up? FCLO/BO isn’t exactly inexpensive!
I don’t know what to believe. All I know is that I was on FCLO/BO for a year. After the year, I felt awful and finally got a Vit D test which measured low (19.6ng/ml). This is how dramatic it was…in addition to a whole host of horrid symptoms, I barely slept for 2 months from severe insomnia – this was when I was still on FCLO/BO. The first day I supplemented with an extra 5000 IU of D3 on top of the FCLO/BO, I slept for 5 hours that night. Approximately 7 – 10 days later, much of the anxiety/depression had literally lifted. I’m still not completely back to myself, but hopefully I’ll get there, especially now that the sun has been here for a few days!
I think many of us here are trying to optimize our health, investigating and going back to traditional diets because that’s what our bodies run best and most efficiently with. I haven’t seen any research yet that would indicate that the human body makes vit D2, but it makes D3. So why would I believe that Vit D2, even from FCLO, would be better or an equally good source of Vit D than D3 when the body doesn’t even make D2? I don’t know, but I don’t think my body can use the D2 in FCLO very well! Maybe some of you folks are real lucky and can easily utilize the D2 in FCLO, but it would appear that for some of us (myself and my son included), perhaps going back to the D3 form that our body makes would be best – of course coming from the sun as the number one source and then perhaps a D3 supplement if needed. Or maybe even a tanning bed or a UVB light source???
My husband just got his D levels tested. He’s been on 2000IU/day of D3 since about March and he’s never touched FCLO. His D level was fine. Albeit, I guess that’s really the next million dollar question….what is an appropriate level of Vit D?
So many questions….
Thank you so much for this post, Kelly! Crazy as this sounds, I am so happy to hear that I’m not the only one that can’t get adequate D levels with FCLO. My son also tested D deficient, so we are now supplementing with an additional 2000IU of D3. We also had 3 days in a row of sun! So we’ve been spending some time outdoors to take advantage of that. We see alot of cloud and rain, so getting some sun sure is a treat for us…in many ways!
I take both FCLO and Vit D and A gel caps, irregularly. I had my D levels tested by Grassroots Health, but I had to discontinue after the second reading because they couldn’t read my sample. It is hard for me to get enough blood to drip from a pin prick onto the test blot… so I was supposed to get tested every 6 months but only got results the first time (I think I was 55, quite good). Weird, huh?
My thoughts…while I use FCLO during the winter and during my menstrual cycle…I dont think God meant for us to need supplements. We should be able to get all we need from sunshine and pastured meat and dairy. We eat tons of raw pastured dairy, eggs, meats, and dont use soap after a day in the sun except on the important few spots since that washes the vitamin D off. I am not wasting more money on testing sorry.simple life for me. I think we as a health conscious group get just as caught up in over thinking and playing into the medical aspect of things instead of the simplistic ways.
Chris Kresser recently addressed this on his website/blog. FCLO is not a particularly good source of D3 but Chris Kresser says it’s still full of good stuff and you should keep taking it. He has had patients/clients still test quite low even when on FCLO. You might want to look at what he had to say.
He also said that recent studies show that high levels of vitamin D are associated with higher instances of mortality. The research is really making him think twice about lowering his recommendations.
Hi Tina,
I was trying to find where Chris Kresser mentioned that he has clients that test quite low on D even when on FCLO. I couldn’t find it. Could you please post a link if you can?
Thanks!
I think sunlight is our body’s natural source of Vitamin D, and when we try to override that natural pathway, it doesn’t always work. I know people who take supplements and they don’t change their levels at all. I know others who overdose on the same supplements. I think we get too wrapped up in man-made scales and numbers, and Chris Kresser’s report (mentioned above) shows how that can be a problem. My opinion is to take FCLO to get over illness and get out in the sun for your Vitamin D, and don’t sweat the numbers so much.
I totally agree with your statement!
I also thought over Kresser’s lower recommendations and it seems somewhat logical. Given that large quantities of vitamin D are not easily found in food and that most people, due to geographical reasons, cannot produce vitamin D about 50% of the year (and those whose geography allows for it are typically darker skinned and produce vitamin D less efficiently anyway) suggests to me that having serum levels of vitamin D higher than 50 year round is just not natural. I believe that short term, like in the summer months, levels between 50 – 70 may not have ill side effects for some people and is just the body’s way of storing vitamin D for the fall/winter months.
That said, I also think that there is an issue surrounding general guidelines for vitamins and minerals in terms of a lack of individuality. I agree with you about not sweating the numbers. I am a believer that, depending on the current health/state of the person, dietary needs can be significantly different from person to person. I think it’s best to gauge dietary needs and supplementation based on how your body feels.
Ive done a ton of research on this and my Vit D was very low a few years ago, after reading on how toxic the prescribed dosages were(and supplements and I do not get along) I decided as I always do, to go natural. If our bodies need something, then there are natural ways to get it. Sun is the best way, carefully harvested between the hours of 1-3 pm I believe is safe without sunscreen for about 20-30 mins, bare arms and head. Salmon(wild caught) is a great source of vit D, as are eggs, mushrooms and more. Eating organic and grass fed, wild caught etc foods, have absorbed the sun and therefor have vit D. Just like us. We are designed to absorb and store Vit D, enough to get through even harsh long winters. I brought my level up to 24 in just a few months without any supplements. My goal is 30, even 35 would be ok, but I wont go higher. I know people who take 1000’s a week and still are being told they are low. And most Vit D supplements are from lanolin, squeezing out the oils from sheep’s wool. That includes Nordic Naturals and Garden of Life, not sure about Blue Ice. I feel that since no one(that I know of!) has gone and sucked on a sheep’s wool , that may not be the best source of D 🙂 But this of course is all my opinion based on gut instinct and research. Eat the right foods, proper preparation, taking in account all the things that can stop or deplete our D, gmo’s, pesticides, time of day, stress, processed foods, pasteurized dairy , chlorinated water, fluoride etc etc. Get all the facts you can, eat the best you can and get some responsible sun exposure.
Nordic Naturals makes a Vegan Vitamin D3 also. Some folks have a difficult time getting enough without supplementation.
Wow, good to know. I’m @ 34 weeks gestation and started FCLO about a month ago and haven’t noticed any aid in immune support. Of course my diet’s been horrible w/ this pregnancy, so I guess I shouldn’t treat the FCLO like a magic pill, I’m sure my diet is just cancelling it out. I got the worst ear infection w/ a pain level of 10 for a week, even after 2 kinds of abx and hearing loss for 3 weeks, and then a few days break before getting my umpteenth cold. I’m sure the pest problem in our kitchen is an accomplice in the matter.
Just wish I could see a difference in my health, but I guess absolutely EVERY piece of the puzzle must be in place.
Very interesting. I have to supplement with Vitamin D because I have hypothyroidism. The way I found out I was deficient was because while my hormone dose “was correct” I was feeling horrible. So I pushed my endocrinologist to do more comprehensive blood panel, aside than my thyroid hormones, and that’s when we discovered it. The body needs Vitamin D to help along the synthesis process of the hormone meds at the cellular level. Two weeks after I started taking Vit D supplement, I started feeling a whole lot better.
Same problems here. We supplemented D3 drops and FCLO with our son who had a vit D level of 5. His levels came right up so we went off the drops and stuck with just FCLO for maintenance (and all the other health benefits). Next test his vit D levels had gone down again to around 30. Now we supplement every day with 1000-2000iu of D3 drops in addition to the FCLO.
In defense of the levels of vitamins in FCLO, our son was looking out the side of his eyes all the time. Our ND suggested he could probably do with more vit A so suggested we double his FCLO. He stopped looking out the sides of his eyes after a few weeks.
I took 3 or 4 x the recommended dose of FCLO for about a year before being tested and my level was around 35. So I agree that FCLO may not be enough for some people. I supplement with 2000iu per day of D3 in capsule form although the drops are easier to take. The fatter you are, BTW, the more D3 you need to take to make a dent. DH is very skinny and he can’t take as much as I can. He was for a while then his level was tested at 125!
We just get our doctor to test, so insurance covers it.
125 is not recommended! Even under the “old” guidelines, about 90 was max.
I’ve been taking FCLO for the past two years and both years my level was low. Last year, I decided to just up how much FCLO I was taking and after a year of that I’m still low. My Naturopath said something about how the vitamin D in FCLO is not easily available and that some people just don’t convert it to a usable form as easily as others. I’m working with her to decide what the appropriate supplementation is. Seeing the recommendations for Thorne is helpful-I’m going to check that out. Also, I’m sure the fact that I live in Chicago is a factor, I don’t get much direct sunlight b/c it’s cold most of the year! (mental note to future me: move some where warmer)
I take FCLO too and my Vit D is low. I talked with a nutritionist that said many of WAP people have low Vit D. I don’t know why – I wish someone would research that but I know I have to take a supplement. I will try laying in the sun a little more this summer.
Oh, I forgot to mention…my sister recommends the optimal level for Vitamin D is between 50-70.
Yes…we have been disappointed to find out that all the FCLO (Green Pasture’s) is not being absorbed by my 13 year old. His Vitamin D level was low!! He’s taken it for a long time. My sister, who is a nutritionist (the right kind…she’s spoken at WAPF November conference in the past), says some people’s bodies just don’t convert the vitamin D (her explanation was much better than mine!). She now has him on Biotics Bio-D-Mulsion Forte. Hoping for a better test result next time!
According to the test data on Green Pasture’s website, the D in their FCLO is mostly D2 and just a little D3. I wonder if that may play a role?
I suspect those with VDR (vitamin D receptor) genetic anomalies are more likely to have trouble…but then you start getting into the complicated world of genes and epigenetics! Genetic anomalies are not as simple as if this then this…depending on your food intake, stress levels, and particular genetic combos, your “bad” genes may not be expressed!
I took FCLO faithfully every day over the last year, plus occasionally supplementing with D3 from Biotics Research — and my D level was only 36 in March. I say “only”, because I believe that our D levels should be at least 50, and 95-100 is better. I have since increased my supplementation, along with getting some sun as the weather has allowed here in MIchigan.
My husband took Dr. Mercola’s advice and came home on his lunch hour to lay in the sun for about 20 minutes almost every day last summer. His D level, with no supplementation, was 95 in the fall!
I do not believe that FCLO is a good source of Vitamin D.
I was on a similar path – my D level reached 75 with Biotics Bio-D-Mulsion Forte, and it was too high. It was masking the symptoms of an infection I’d had for several weeks. I was very sick, felt very low for weeks, and found out my level was too high, and I was sick instead!
I also take FCLO from Green Pasture every day. I got tested back in early April and was surprised that my vitamin D levels were low (20 ng/ml). I have since began taking Carlson’s Super Daily D3 and plan to get re-tested in July.
Chris Kresser recently had an update about adequate vitamin D levels on his podcast: http://chriskresser.com/surprising-new-vitamin-d-research-the-myth-of-multi-tasking-and-how-the-internet-is-rewiring-our-brains
It’s a good listen and suggests that the “optimal” zone of serum vitamin D levels are around 30 or 25, with a target of 35 ng/mL and an upper limit of maybe 50. However, he does mention that higher vitamin A and K2 intake may allow for higher levels of serum vitamin D without negative side effects. He also distinguishes the difference between 25D levels (inactive form) and 1,25D levels (active form) and states that 25D levels may actually not be a good indicator of vitamin D status.
We do supplement because we are far north. Our levels are “fine” but if you go with Mercola, we need to be higher. I do think that you need to be sure you also have the K2. And I second the Thorne suggestion.
Oh boy, I’ve been taking FCLO for several years now and my D levels are very low. One commenter said most of the D in FCLO is D2, so I wonder about liver from cows or chickens. If it’s mostly D2 and not D3 maybe good ol fashioned sun is the best solution. We’d better get to the bottom of this! Should we eat more liver or get more sun or both?!
No, it’s definately D3 in FCLO. D3 is vitamin D from an animal source. D2 comes from plant sources.
Jen, yes that’s what we’ve been told, but according to a company that sells Green Pastures FCLO, and a quick look around the blogosphere, reveels that indeed it is mostly D2, and very little D3. That being said, this link may allay some concerns with that:
http://www.greenpasture.org/fermented-cod-liver-oil-butter-oil-vitamin-d-vitamin-a/vitamin-d2-is-equally-as-effective-as-vitamin-d3-in-maintaining-25-hydroxyvitamin-d-status/