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Kelly the Kitchen Kop

Gluten Free is Expensive

October 21, 2010 32 Comments

*Amazon or other affiliate links may be included, see full disclosure after the post. I'm not a medical professional, so use anything you read here only as a starting point for your own research.

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Did you know there was a book with this title, ‘Living Gluten-Free For Dummies’?  (I didn’t!)

A participant in my Rookie class asked this question in the forum the other day:

Does anyone have any tips for making gluten free easier on your budget? My husband has Asperger's syndrome and just started doing gluten free, but so much is expensive! I'd love to be able to have pasta or a baked good he can eat once a week or so that wouldn't break us financially. I read about making your own rice flour and my mom has a Vitamix. Have you ever done this or have any other recommendations?  Thanks.”

We got a great response Alex that I’ll share below, but I’d love to hear your ideas, too!

Here’s what Alex says:

I'm not a gluten free guy, though I have a side job at a restaurant that just recently started catering to people with gluten intolerance.  After learning about gluten allergies and what food they have to eat, I came to the conclusion that there are really two ways to eat gluten free…

1) Eat hyper-processed crap food that is the equivalent of a vegetarian or vegan subsisting off of Boca Burgers, Not-Dogs and tofurkey.  Since many people have pre-conceived notions on how, say, pasta, pizza, pancakes, and other gluten-rich foods should look, feel, and taste, companies dump lots of coloring, stabilizers, and chemicals that enhance texture and flavor so people buy the products. They are also highly likely to contain GMO products or derivatives as well. GROSS!  And if THAT isn't bad enough… the flavor of many of those products (that I have tried) is somewhere between disappointing and unpalatable.

2) By contrast, eating whole, fresh, clean foods such as fruits, veggies, pastured meats, eggs, dairy, sprouted grains, etc. is a natural and traditional way of being gluten free without much effort. There are tons of other grains and legumes fulfill your desire for carbs if that is what you fancy. I have used rice and mung bean noodles in Asian dishes before. Those are incredibly cheap (I haven't read the labels so I have yet to find out if they are bad) and may help curb your desire for pastas. They really don't go well with Italian flavors though. Also, as we are learning that corn and corn products are not the best because of the Omega balance and so forth, this may be for the “once in a while” category. However, polenta cakes with fresh, hand-pulled mozzarella (the soft stuff, not the brick, also this is the easiest cheese to make at home and takes about 20-30 minutes TOPS) covered in marinara sauce is a GREAT alternative to pasta. Now that we know animal fats are good, why not cook it in bacon fat to get some of that smoky salty goodness incorporated into the polenta. Add a little crushed red pepper to the sauce for a kick of heat and you have a southern Italian dish that is totally GF.

I guess since we are supposed to be avoiding/limiting starches overall, maybe his new diet is a blessing in disguise. It may force you to limit your starch intake.

p.s.  I own a Vita-Mix and they are awesome. Theoretically you need the “dry blade” container to make rice flour. If you do make it, use brown rice and soak over night. Then dry it completely and make the flour.  Rice also has the same phytic acid that wheat and other grains, nuts and beans have, this is an anti-nutrients. Soy also has lots of this.

p.p.s. Kelly's link to that sprouted organic flour mill has some non-wheat flours that are already milled for you.

Hope that helps a bit.”

Who knows why he’s taking my Rookie class, he’s already way on top of things!  🙂

What about you, are there any more ideas you can share with us for less expensive gluten-free foods?

  • Read Kat's post on Managing Celiac Disease
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Comments

  1. B.B says

    January 15, 2011 at 5:14 PM

    “Rice also has the same phytic acid that wheat and other grains, nuts and beans have, this is an anti-nutrients”.
    Really. That sucks. How do you avoid that? I eat brown rice almost daily. It keeps me full

    Reply
    • KitchenKop says

      January 16, 2011 at 6:08 AM

      Just soak it beforehand, or also you could buy germinated/sprouted rice, which I love:

      There’s more about germinated rice here: https://kellythekitchenkop.com/2008/07/germinated-rice-organic-chicken.html

      Kelly p.s. There’s a link toward the bottom of that link with more about how to soak brown rice.

      Reply
      • B.B says

        January 16, 2011 at 10:59 AM

        Thanks! Sorry for all the questions. But would I just soak it in boiling /room temp water for a few hours /overnight, then cook it as normal?

        For the last batch of rice I made, all I did was boil water from the kettle, then pour the rice in, and I ate it like that (well once it was cooked).

        I saw that post as well yesterday. I would love to buy already germinated rice, but I really doubt they sell it like that already in the UK. I share a flat, and the process seems long to make it.

        Reply
  2. jodie says

    November 21, 2010 at 6:35 AM

    Hey –

    For all you pasta/sauce lovers out there – try Kelp noodles – no gluten no carbs and great for you minerals! Enjoy!

    Reply
    • KitchenKop says

      November 21, 2010 at 8:02 PM

      I think someone has commented about them before but then I forgot, thanks for the reminder. Also remind me where to get them? And what do they taste like?

      Reply
  3. Magda says

    October 25, 2010 at 10:31 AM

    I’m sure I’ll be repeating some of the awesome advice given above, but here’s what I do (I’ve been GF for 3 or 4 years and I eat mostly dairy-free as well):
    bread: I make a flatbread and eat a small square a day most of the time. One recipe lasts me 2 weeks. I sometimes buy a loaf of GF bread when in a pinch (I found a local one that is awesome) but they are just not that great.
    pancakes/waffles: make my own – either soaked waffle recipe or almond flour pancakes.
    pasta: Tinkyada is awesome. It’s a bit pricey so I try to buy when it’s on sale and I find I just don’t eat that much. My latest “meal in a pinch”: pasta with organic tomato sauce, topped with sauteed local grassfed sausage. YUM
    others: I buy GF pretzels when they’re on sale and treat them like gold LOL I eat a few every once in a while and savor them. Same with GF cookies: I have a box on hand in case of emergencies. I make GF almond flour brownies that are awesome. Also cupcakes/muffins and cookies with pumpkin, peanut butter, etc. Overall, like many others said, I just eat less grains. I stick to rice and potatoes but limit the amount and instead eat more veg and meat and fat.
    Hope this helps!

    Reply
  4. Anna says

    October 23, 2010 at 1:23 PM

    I don’t find gluten-free eating to be too expensive, mostly because I’ve already transitioned to feeding my family nutrient-dense foods without much use of grain-based foods. We only buy very few packaged GF products sold in stores, such as a few (2-3 loaves of GF bread, a couple boxes of GF rice crackers, and certified GF oats). The expensive GF packaged items are really “small potatoes” in our overall food budget because we keep them to a minimum.

    I don’t spend much money on “empty” snacks anymore, like chips, bagged or microwave popcorn, pretzels, sodas, juices, bottles of pre-made tea or lemonade (I’ve got a lemon tree & a juice orange tree) unless it’s an unusual circumstance where making my own isn’t in the cards. Not buying those items frees up food budget money to spend on foods and ingredients that are somewhat more expensive: local backyard eggs; farmstead aged cheese; cream; raw milk; pastured meat buys in bulk/poultry; organic maple syrup; local raw honey; quality dark chocolate; local CSA produce; quality coconut, and olive oils, and so on.

    A few GF-specific ingredient items might seem more expensive at the cash register, like a pound bag of coconut flour, but when a batch of cookies or a cake only takes 1/4-3/4 cup instead of 1-3 cups of wheat flour, a package of coconut flour will go a long, long way. Even with $5/doz eggs and other quality ingredients, I can still make a batch of GF and nutrient-dense cookies, pancakes, or a cake for less than the cost of a purchased GF packaged item.

    I buy a loaf of GF bread for my son once in a while (2-3 loaves a month) but it isn’t a big staple item for him. Even when I bought wheat bread for him, I spent about the same amount for a sprouted variety.

    I think the GF expense is a bigger issue if someone is buying a lot of packaged GF products – frozen GF waffles, breakfast cereals, etc. Recreating a GF diet based on processed GF grains certainly would be more more expensive, but IMO it’s not very nutrient dense or healthy in the long run.

    Reply
  5. Heather says

    October 22, 2010 at 4:52 PM

    If you have access to Trader Joe’s, they are going to be a good friend (if they aren’t already!). They have good brown rice pasta, MUCH more reasonably priced than anywhere else I’ve found, and they generally have reasonably-almond flour. Probably other stuff, too. My DH probably ought to be gluten free. We haven’t taken that plunge yet, but I do try to keep things at least “gluten-lite”, and TJ’s brown rice pasta is what I regularly buy.

    Reply
  6. Elizabeth says

    October 22, 2010 at 7:52 AM

    I read a great idea somewhere . . . .to take a veggie peeler and make long peels of zuchini and boil for pasta noodles. I have not tried that yet . . .. with a family of my size it would take a lot of zuchini!! I have made lasagna using slices of zuchini in place of the lasagna noodles and it was pretty good, except mine was too runny.

    Reply
  7. Rich @VancouverNutritionist says

    October 21, 2010 at 5:22 PM

    My wife and I started a gluten-free community group in Vancouver called ‘Living Gluten-Free Community’ (www.lgfc.ca).

    My wife wrote an article a while ago about living gluten-free on a budget. It was picked up by one of our local papers, as well. There’s several great tips in here:

    https://lgfc.ca/healthy-gluten-free-living-on-a-budget/

    Hope this helps any newbies to the gf diet. It was tough when we first started, but it gets easier.

    Reply
  8. WordVixen says

    October 21, 2010 at 5:14 PM

    I also recommend checking out Primal and Paleo sites for great recipes. Both camps use NO grains (though they also don’t use legumes), no refined sugar, very little of any sugar, actually, and you only have to watch out about your Omega 6 intake with all the nuts they like to use. 🙂 For example, Primal Matriarch has an apple spice cake that’s essentially apples and almond butter, and a salmon cake recipe that uses ground pine nuts (I used pistachios and it was awesome). https://www.primalmatriarch.com/p/recipe-database.html And Mark’s Daily Apple has a post with recipes for coconut flour (things like coconut flour cake, pancakes, and such). I’m still on the hunt for pasta recipes, though. I have a feeling that I might be able to do rivels pretty easily (usually a cup of flour, 1 egg, dash of salt, massaged into dough and then rubbed vigorously between your hands and into a pot of boiling water or soup- good for soup, but too doughy for real pasta), but actual pasta I haven’t figured out yet. Miracle Noodles should be fine (some kind of yam flour), but they’re expensive. A paleo aquaintance of mine just bought a bag of sweet potato flour that she’s very happy with, so that’s a possibility too, especially as I currently buy pasta that’s partially made with Jerusalem Artichoke flour (a root veg).

    Paula- that cake recipe sounds awesome! One of these weekends when hubs is out for the day I’ll have to make it (he’ll never try it if he knows it’s made with beans).

    Reply
  9. Pavil the Uber Noob says

    October 21, 2010 at 1:25 PM

    I have been doing the Real Food stuff now for several months. It turns out I don’t eat a lot starch or bread. I do, however, consume a high ratio of fats from pastured animals & virgin coconut oil (VCO) – about 70% (almost triple cream :)).
    If I want muffins or quick bread, its something baked with coconut flour & VCO.
    I cuts costs by making my own soup stock (just made stock from fish heads yesterday) and ferments.

    So, starch is more of a condiment than a staple at my house.

    For energy, I prefer wholesome fats to any starch. They both reduce down to the same nutrient: acetyl co-enzyme A, and Krebs cycle doesn’t care how the acetyl co-enzyme got there.

    Reply
  10. Paula Runyan says

    October 21, 2010 at 12:59 PM

    OH SORRY!
    9×9, 350 degrees

    If you want to double it, make sure to make it twice, as the blender will not hold all of it.
    Trust me on this ;o)

    Reply
  11. Linda Meadows says

    October 21, 2010 at 12:49 PM

    Paula,
    What oven temperature and what sized pan for the the chocolate black bean cake?
    Thank you,
    Linda

    Reply
  12. Jenny says

    October 21, 2010 at 12:23 PM

    I am gf also and have been struggling with the budget. Mostly I just don’t eat replacements. That said, with a busy family life I have purchased gf bread once in awhile. The other mixes only on occasion really break the budget. I am really trying to make fewer desserts and have them only for treats.

    A couple of suggestions: is make your own flour. I am going to do this once I find a grinder/grain mill- any recommendations? And where to find gf grains in bulk? So I can make the occasional treats not so costly. I also use nut flours too. Trader Joe’s carries gluten free brown rice pasta for $1.99 per pound. (at least in my area.) This is the best price I have found. We use this when we want pasta. I also use spagetti squash as well. Occasionally I use the asian rice noodles for soups and stir fries.

    The weird thing is I have been diagnosed with non specific form of celiac or latent celiac disease. But I have all the symptons. My household isn’t gf only I am. My hubby has been after me to make it gf so I don’t get cross contamination. I think I am getting some and it is why I still have inflammation. Also I still have some issues even with gluten free foods. Most likely it’s the starch I am sensitive to. So I am looking at going back to grain/sugar free eating. My concern is having the whole family eat this way would totally break our budget. I am leaning towards making my own flour and this would save a lot of money.

    Right now I am purchasing real food instead of the gf foods. Pastured meats, good fats, eggs, raw milk, veggies, & fruits. There really isn’t much room for anything else.

    Love all the ideas so far!!

    Reply
  13. Paula Runyan says

    October 21, 2010 at 12:16 PM

    Say, I have the pancake recipe in my food blog!
    https://sustainablefirstfruits.blogspot.com/2010/01/simple-gluten-free-pancakes.html

    Reply
  14. Paula Runyan says

    October 21, 2010 at 12:13 PM

    Jo Ann,
    When I make the pancakes, I forgot to mention that a bit less liquid may be needed.
    Just get the flour wet. You can add more in the morning after adding the rest of the ingrediants if need be.
    Paula

    Reply
  15. Paula Runyan says

    October 21, 2010 at 12:10 PM

    Banana Bread

    This recipe is adapted from my grandmothers recipe, to make it gluten free.

    Preheat oven to 350
    Butter, and then flour with rice four, one bread pan.

    1/2 cup butter
    1/2
    3 bananas (frozen and thawed are best)
    2 eggs
    2 cups of brown rice flour
    1 tsp of baking soda
    1/2 tsp baking powder
    1/2 tsp sea salt
    1/2 cup of kefir
    1/2 cup of soaked.dehydrated nuts (optional)

    Soak flour with kefir overnight, or all day.
    Mix rest of ingredients in, pour into pan, and bake till done.
    Allow to cool. Loosen the sides prior to dumping out.

    You will find that this recipe is very similiar to the wheat version of banana bread.
    Very little difference in texture or flavor.

    Reply
  16. Paula Runyan says

    October 21, 2010 at 12:06 PM

    Here is the chocolate recipe.
    Please head the cooked bean part, and DO NOT grind and use dry beans.

    Because this cake is made with honey, you must let it set a good 12-24 hours prior to eating, to let the sweetness set in.
    If you eat it before that, you will be disappointed for sure.

    Black Bean Chocolate cake.

    24 hours prior to making this cake, soak 2 cups of black beans in water, with a little bit of raw whey added.
    Cook and cool the beans in fresh water, prior to making the cake.
    (Beans may be cooled quickly by rinsing with cold water)
    This method assure that your beans will not cause gastric issue of any kind.
    If you do not have dry beans available to you, you can use one can of rinsed black beans,
    However, I cannot vouch for their not causing gastric distress.
    On to the recipe!
    In your blender, combine the following.
    1 1/2 cups of cooked and cooled beans
    3 farm fresh eggs
    1 tsp of vanilla
    1/2 tsp of sea salt
    6 Tbls of cocoa powder
    1 tsp of baking powder
    1/2 tsp of baking soda.

    Blend until smooth.
    Add the following ingredients.
    3/4 cup of honey
    7 tbsp of warmed butter
    2 eggs.

    Blend again till smooth.

    Pour into a buttered pan that has also been “floured” with a bit of cocoa.
    Bake until center just springs back when pressed.

    Allow to fully cool, and ideally, let sit for a few hours prior to serving.
    Serve with a dollop of fresh raw cream and a few sliced strawberries.

    Reply
  17. charity dasenbrock says

    October 21, 2010 at 11:00 AM

    I am with those who mostly do without “replacements” . However, sometimes a girl just has to have bread so it becomes an occasional splurge or usually I make something. The ingredients are expensive but I am worth it and for me, it all balances out. Things in boxes generally cost more in the long run than fresh whole ingredients.

    Reply
  18. MamaBee says

    October 21, 2010 at 10:52 AM

    My daughter and I have been GF for several months now (severe gluten intolerance meant ADD, IBS and joint pain for me, intractable diaper rash and bloating for her). At first, all the GF junk food and mixes ate tempting. I was grieving (had been a serious baker) and felt like I deseved it! GF mixes are pricy, often contain soy and other funky stuff, and are often gross. So tip #1 is: don’t buy it if you don’t need it, even if it is GF. We save big money by grinding our own flour – we buy sorghum, short grain brown rice, quinoa, etc. In bulk. Those little Bob’s packages don’t last long around here. We use a hand-cranked mill – bonus that the GF grains are much easier to grind! I use my food processor to make nut flours from crispy nuts. Maybe your VitaMix will do a better job. We buy grains from our coop or Azure, arrowroot and kudzu powder from Mountain Rose Herbs, and tapioca starch from the Asian grocery (80% cheaper than Bob’s). Make a list of foods you already like that are already GF or easy-to-convert. Arrowroot powder is great for thickening sauces and breading. Cooking Traditional Foods is a website by Kerry Ann Foster that puts out a TF menu mailer – all her recipes are gluten/dairy free. They also tend to be quite affordable. It is my main source for recipes/ideas now. Lastly, I would caution you against trialing gluten in any form at this point. While it’s true that some people can tolerate occasional gluten if prepared correctly, most cannot. And since it takes six months for traces of gluten to leave the system, a trial wouldn’t be conclusive until after a strict elimination period. My daughter and I only had sourdough and soaked wheat products, but were still very adversely impacted! Watch labels and always check for trace gluten. It’s not just in wheat! Don’t buy grains or flour that has been processed on the same equipment with wheat unless you’re certain they take precautionary measures to avoid cross contamination.

    Reply
    • lynnpaulus says

      October 31, 2010 at 4:43 PM

      If you live in the midwest there is a food cooperative called country Life Natural Foods https://www.clnf.org/ that you can order bulk grains, flours and beans it requires a 400 dollar min. order but with a family and ordering 2 x’s year or with other familiers it is a great savings.

      Reply
      • KitchenKop says

        October 31, 2010 at 9:03 PM

        Or if you live fairly close to them like I do, you could make the drive over and buy stuff direct! It’s about an hour away and I’ve found inexpensive foods closer to us, but a friend used to go that way and pick stuff up for me.

        Reply
  19. Amy Floyd says

    October 21, 2010 at 9:23 AM

    I think the key is to change your way of thinking about grains/wheat/bread items. Don’t try to replace them; just try to live without them. Of course, that is easier said than done. But alternative flours and flour blends and gluten-free replacment breads and crackers, etc. ARE expensive and can easily blow the budget. We’ve found that it is not too hard to just not serve bread with our meals. Treats made with alternative flours are treats indeed and rarely made, not everyday occurences. We’ve found that the amount of meat and veggies we eat has not risen extraordinarily. And we are satisfied for longer as well. For example, instead of cookies for a snack for my kids, I will set out cheese cubes and apple slices. I have never done the cost comparison for this, but I know my kids are more satisfied with less and are not begging me for “another cookie” in 5 minutes.

    Oh, and be generous with the good fats — they help fill us up too. A dinner of a meat and veggies, with veggies smothered in real butter, can be quite filling.

    And lastly, sometimes seeking better health IS more expensive than the status quo. But it is not more expensive than pharmaceutical drugs. This helps me keep things in perspective. As my interest and belief in real food has grown, my main priority with our finances is buying good food. I will shop for mine and my kids’ clothes at thrift stores, but I pay premium prices for excellent food.

    Amy

    Reply
  20. Majomor says

    October 21, 2010 at 8:35 AM

    oops!, i meant Paula in my last post….apologies…thanks for all you guys fabulous tips…..Jo-Anne

    Reply
  21. Julie says

    October 21, 2010 at 8:21 AM

    Very helpful. Could Paula give us her Black Bean Chocolate Honey cake recipe that she mentioned in her comment?

    Reply
  22. Majomor says

    October 21, 2010 at 7:54 AM

    Hi Paul,
    Do you care to share or elaborate on the chocolate cake and the brown rice soaking?
    First, what chocolate recipe do you use? and secondly, what are the proportions of the brown rice soaking?
    For example, if the recipe calls for a cup of flour for the pancakes, how much of Kefir to add for soaking, and in the morning, do you just add the other ingredients after it has soaked and proceed?
    I am all excited as I am on by 6th day of feeding my sprouted rye starter, so i am eager to make my no-knead sourdough bread with my sprouted sourdough spelt flour I ordered from cultures, using Kellys and cheeseslave’s recommendations for ordering…because here in Canada, we cannot buy theses types of flours!
    I do make a great chocolate chip chip cookie with almond flour, but do not know how to use the soaked almonds?…do i soak the almonds then dehydrate them (which i need to purchase a dehydrator)?

    Reply
  23. Heather says

    October 21, 2010 at 7:39 AM

    Thank You All! I was SO excited when I saw that Kelly used this for a post, because I knew everyone would have some good suggestions! Just seeing the changes in my husband’s comfort level is enough to make me happy about the change! We are working on making lots of changes, but trying to make them all slowly so they’ll be life changes and not just a “fad.” I welcome and appreciate all your input. Thanks SO much!! And, seriously Kelly – thank YOU! I have been having so much fun in this class & have learned so much already. <3

    Reply
  24. Michele says

    October 21, 2010 at 5:49 AM

    The first I had to learn was to cook the dang brown rice pasta!! That stuff is not for the faint of heart if it is over cooked. Once I mastered this I was able to make a pasta dish once a week. And give my non gluten issue family members a meal they loved without breaking the bank.

    To cook it, basically toss out the box or bags directions. What your looking to do is really just SOAK the pasta. I bring the water to a boil, add the pasta and turn the water completely off. Depending on the type of pasta and amount it can take anywhere from 6 to 9 minutes. I would just start testing it about 5 minutes. Your looking for an al denta texture. If it goes past that texture your going to quickly get mush.

    Keep in mind being GF for a Celiac is harder than say those who are avoiding it for other dietary reasons. Being Celiac also has no standard. One person can tolerate things another Celiac can not. It really is different. While Paula above can have sourdough, my daughter can not. One has to remember that this disease can be deadly if we look at as a one size fits all. Tread carefully if you have an allergy to gluten. Also for those who are Celiac keep in mind just because you feel nothing does not mean it is not bad for you. It can still be damaging you.

    The thing we have done is much like Alex suggested. Fresh foods, mostly just meats & veggies. The only grains we have regularly is brown soaked rice and brown rice pasta. We have them both once a week & small servings. No cakes, no cereals, no crackers, no breads etc. And if we have them it is a rare treat. It has been awhile but we are now at the point we just don’t miss them. Not only is it cheaper to avoid grains but as many studies has shown, just not necessary.

    For us we look at our daughter being Celiac (and having an severe allergy to food dye) as a blessing. We learned how to eat properly before it was too late for the whole family. 🙂

    God Bless,
    Michele

    Reply
    • lynnpaulus says

      October 31, 2010 at 4:38 PM

      We use tinkyada rice pasta and cook it just as Michele says, if fact it it written right on the front of the package. It has made such a differance. My relatives can’t even tell the differance anymore!

      Reply
  25. Paula Runyan says

    October 21, 2010 at 12:50 AM

    Basically, I have resisted many of the so called required ingrediants in the gluten free world.
    They cost to much, may not be healthy, and I have found that a good many of them are not needed after all.

    Reply
  26. Paula Runyan says

    October 21, 2010 at 12:48 AM

    We make a black bean honey chocolate cake that beats out ALL regular cakes recipes out there. Creamy and chocolatey all the way!
    For pancakes, just use the standard Joy of Cooking recipe, making the following changes.
    Use brown rice flour and kefir. Soak overnight. When adding the rest of the ingrediants in the morning, use 6 eggs instead of 2, and use honey instead of sugar.
    These turn out better then wheat ones, and, my husband, who has Type 1 Diabetes, has noticed that these do not cause him the trouble the regular ones do.
    Ginger cookies. We have not figured out how to soak these, so they are special occasion only.
    Use the standard recipe, switching the flours to 1/2 and 1/2 rice and Teff.

    These tricks eliminate all the “fancy” mixes and unhealthy gums listed in most recipes.

    The other thing to do, is to look into making real sourdough bread from Spelt and Spring wheats for regular breads. I have even found wonderful sourdough pasta recipes that use eggs.
    Sourdough does not cause the respone that modern breads do.
    I have Celiacs, and have found myself, so far, to be symptom free with sourdough.
    TIme will tell if this will hold true, as it does not work for all, but I am willing to experiment.

    Paula

    Reply

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